my 6 day per week weight routine

[Ford Prefect]

Well what he's telling you to do runs counter what to just about everything Westside would. Also bare in mind that Westside is an invitation only gym. I think there are very few people if any, that can just drop by to train when they feel like it. Never heard of Marcus before.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i respect your opinion highly ford and i dont mean to get defensive of my buddy, but i guess its only natural. i hear what youre saying about the volume and i welcome the criticisms, but that aside i dont see marcus lying about where he's trained. in his own words hes a dime a dozen and i talk him up more than he does, but he's had the opportunity to meet a lot of people.

a quick google gave me these links from 2005.

http://www.nasa-sports.com/Results/R...n%20States.htm

(acrobat file ... i opened it and its fine.) http://www.aaujrogames.org/sports/20...s%20mucheck%22

http://www.geocities.com/nasa_lifters/PL-M.htm



two of his posts from another forum:

I was unaware there was even a powerlifting forum here.

My name is marcus mucheck I compete in a few diff sports, powerlifting being my favorite.

I live in West Virginia and own my own gym. We train a good bit of fighters, lifters, and bodybuilders, who actually do compete.

My platform record includes competiton wins in multiple federations including: APF, USPF, NASA, AAU, and IPA.

I train at westside barbell in columbus Ohio anywhere from 3 times a week to 4 times a month depending on my own work schedule. Ed Coan and Gene Bell have also been extremely influential in my training, they really know their stuff.

So please, now that I've introduced myself, say hello.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=792187

well, just so we are all starting on the same foot...i am not solely a powerlifter...

so here are what i think a powerlifter, weightlifter, bodybuilder, and over all athlete could look at and get and idea.

front squat-315x4
high bar squat in a meet- 429 (not raw)
365x2 high bar raw
standing overhead-220
snatch- 165
clean and jerk 235, i squat jerk
incline 205x3
raw bench 315
raw squat 365x5 and 405x3 with belt
squatted 555 in a uspf meet and 585 in a apf meet.
benched 405 in a uspf meet and the same in an apf meet
deadlift 525 raw and 530 with belt. for whatever reason i get nothing out of gear for the dl.

im not sure what else would even matter. none of this is even border line good. when you train at the places i have with the people i have...theres a very high standard

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=793475




again i hear you on the volume thing and i'll bring it up to him .... but training meathodologies aside i dont know him to be a liar. he might not be the most humble person i've known, but he's very realistic about his place in the powerlifting world and i've never known him to talk **** he couldnt back up.

[_William_]

You have to look at the big picture in training. In all likelihood, this is a mere snapshot of what you will be doing. There is a time and place for high volume training such as this.

GDA, I am guessing that your coach is putting you on the "Smolov" routine.

http://www.joeskopec.com/smolov.html

Again, we have to look at the big picture here. Lower volume after 3 weeks, and you will see at a major overshoot in performance. I've heard positive feedback from plenty of people on this routine.

Having an experienced coach also makes a huge difference. He SHOULD be able to watch you train and make adjustments as necessary. So this is different from trying to apply a routine on your own.

On the other hand, you are going to have trouble training martial arts with any real intensity while doing this. Hopefully your goals are in synch with one another.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ironically enough when i walked in tonight marcus was talking to ed coan on the phone. he said i need to do more squats

[_William_]

Best powerlifter of all time. I'd be pretty starstruck!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

whats sad is i dont even know that. i just now he talks to him sometimes.

it was funny because i walk in and thats the first thing he hits me with and he was wearing his westside hoodie. i told him that it was ironic and then i brought up this discussion. he laughed and asked if we wanted to know how this and that person warms up or this or that. he listed of a bunch of names but the only ones i can remember are chuck because he mentioned him a few times and amy because it was the only girls name i heard.

i'll see if i cant get him in here to talk about those guys if you're interested.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

.... and ford ... maybe if i can get marcus in here he can explain the reasoning behind this routine. i'd try but im afraid **** will get lost in translation.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

bleh .... i also want to say that im not trying to brag that my buddy knows these guys ..... that would be pretty lame considering ive never talked to these people myself and i didnt even know it was a thing.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

man my knees are starting to hurt. my legs arent really all that sore .... in fact they are much less sore than when i do my own leg routine .... but my knees worry me.

are some aches and pains par for the course or should i consider backing off?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

this is week two:

monday-
full squat 4 sets of 9 with 180
deadlift up to 230 x2 reps then 185x8 sets of 3 with 45 sec between them
bend overs- 3 sets of 5-6

tues-

comp bench press- 2 sets of 135 for 10
incline- 3x10
close grip 3x10

wed-
full squat- 5 sets of 7 with 190
sumo dl 8 sets of 3 with 170
heavy back work using 1 exercise- t bar rows, bent rows, sldl, heavy chins

thurs-
soft benching- incline or flat dumb bells 2-3 sets of 8-12
over head press- 2x10 with 110
side and rear delt raise 2-3 sets of 8-15

fri-
full sq 7 sets of 5 200
pull til knees- 3x5 with 200

sat-
full squat 10 sets of 3 with 215
snatch 15 single with anything

sun-off

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not trying to bag on your friend. I'm just saying to be discerning about what people tell you to do. The guy admits that the Westside guys are much better than him, so why not train Westside style? What he's having you do runs completely counter to the Westside Barbell method. You can look at all the articles on their website (www.elitefitnesssystems.com) and look at all their training logs. Nobody works out like that. You can even submit this routine to their Q&A and see if they think it's a good way to meet your goals.

If I was so inclined, I could name drop quite a bit with not only people that I have had numerous 1-on-1 phone, in-person, or e-mail conversations with, but also places where I have contributed to. The thing is that it all really means nothing. Somebody who took Feynman's introduction to Physics classes doesn't automatically grasp physics better than somebody who didn't, nor does it mean that he is as qualified as Feynman. Just tell the guy that you've read articles on the Westside site and are wondering why your training isn't similar at all.

Tell him you've read olympic weightlifting manuals from both the US and the former USSR, and ask him why your squat volume is so high when olympic weightlifters (arguably to most frequent squatters as they do it 3-4x/week) don't do as much volume or intensity. Not to mention they avoid CNS fatigue by mixing in variations.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I'm not trying to bag on your friend. I'm just saying to be discerning about what people tell you to do. The guy admits that the Westside guys are much better than him, so why not train Westside style? ........Somebody who took Feynman's introduction to Physics classes doesn't automatically grasp physics better than somebody who didn't, nor does it mean that he is as qualified as Feynman.

fair enough .... and i was trying really hard to not get too defensive. i want criticisims on the routine ... its what i asked for ... but i did feel compelled to defend the fact that marcus has in fact trained with these guys. not that it makes any difference at all in the routine .... but no one likes to hear their friend called a liar.

my knees are wondering about this kind of volume as well. if aches and pains are normal thats cool, but ive never had ache'y knees so it scares me. i love marcus, he's my boy, but he's young and full of **** and vinager and willing to give his body more abuse than i.

[Ford Prefect]

That's completely understandable. It is pointless to argue whether he telling the truth or not and in the end it really accomplishes nothing for either of us. Just be discerning about the routine. That's all.

As for your knees, while I think the volume is way, way too high on the free squats, I can't say that it's abnormal. When upping the volume in full ROM movements like that, it is normal for the joints to ache initially. This should subside in a week or so. It should also be a dull ache as opposed to sharp or shooting pains. If it gets worse or you find yourself wincing from it, I'd definately cut back on the volume.

[Ford Prefect]

BTW, I was zoning out on my way into the office this morning. It struck me that this seems very much like the Smolov squat cycle or other similar cycle. I have a few calculators at home, so I'll throw in your numbers and see if I get a hit. I'm not really a huge fan of these because of the volume. The cycles in intensity are supposed to keep away cns fatigue, but I've always found that in trainees with a low total to begin with, it just leads to over training. For instance if the program calls for 4 sets of 9 @ 80%1rm, then 5 sets of 7 @85%1rm, then 7x5@90%1rm followed by 10 sets of 3 @ 95% 1rm, then that may be very well a good cycle to stay away from over training for a more advanced lifter.

Say you can squat 350 lbs that's 280-295-315-330

Or you can squat 400 lbs, that's 320-340-360-380

That's not bad because we are talking about 80 lbs off your max and doing it for 9 reps. Imagine doing 145 instead of 180 and how easy it would seem. Since your squat is still relatively low, the disparity between 100% and 80%1rm is that much smaller. IMO, that's when a greater disparity is needed for cycles like this.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

BTW, I was zoning out on my way into the office this morning. It struck me that this seems very much like the Smolov squat cycle or other similar cycle. I have a few calculators at home, so I'll throw in your numbers and see if I get a hit. I'm not really a huge fan of these because of the volume. The cycles in intensity are supposed to keep away cns fatigue, but I've always found that in trainees with a low total to begin with, it just leads to over training. For instance if the program calls for 4 sets of 9 @ 80%1rm, then 5 sets of 7 @85%1rm, then 7x5@90%1rm followed by 10 sets of 3 @ 95% 1rm, then that may be very well a good cycle to stay away from over training for a more advanced lifter.

Say you can squat 350 lbs that's 280-295-315-330

Or you can squat 400 lbs, that's 320-340-360-380

That's not bad because we are talking about 80 lbs off your max and doing it for 9 reps. Imagine doing 145 instead of 180 and how easy it would seem. Since your squat is still relatively low, the disparity between 100% and 80%1rm is that much smaller. IMO, that's when a greater disparity is needed for cycles like this.

oh ****s i just noticed this responce. this is the smolov routine just as william pointed out a few posts up. thanks for the link btw william ... i meant to thank you for that earlier and it slipped my mind.

i will say this about the routine ... while i was worried about my knees and hips (icing, swimming in the neighbors freezing cold pool, knee wraps, etc has helped) i am already pretty shocked by the results. at week one 10 sets of 3 at 190 felt ridiculous. monday i pumped out 4 sets of 9 without too much of a problem at all .... still felt fresh enough to do my deads and good mornings immediately afterwards (although i will admit that i got to use my buddies suit from the waist down which helped my hips ... i wish i got to use that tonight)

this is my last week of this cycle ... ill let you guys know if my one rep max looks any better in a week or two.