Jiao Men / Sect Boxing / Chinese Muslim Boxing

[Bak Sing]

I spent twelve years in Asia studying Chinese Internal Boxing, Qigong and Taoist Arts. One of the most profound experiences I had, was being welcomed into and receiving teaching from a variety of masters and families in the Hui/Muslim or Jiao Men arts. Not just Cha Quan or long fist, but Xingyi Li He, family styles, Baji/Pigua, Tongbei and Fanzi. Shuai Chiao and Tam Tui, and synthetic varieties of Hsing-I and Bagua in the Hui milieu. Lots of other things as well. My point is simple. I believe that Bagua may be a Muslim art, rather than a Taoist one. Or at least, an opportunistic hybrid of the two. Anyone familiar with the Sufi tradition, will get the meaning. The Sufi practice of ecstatic dance, of walking the circle as meditation. The fact that one Dong's top students was a Muslim bodyguard of some reputation. There is more. If anyone is interested, let's open this up for discussion.

[lunghushan]

No, I think it would be more appropriate to surmise that a lot of other martial arts made their way into the Muslim community.

You have to figure how big is China? How many temples? How many martial arts do they have?

How big is the Muslim community? Do you really think all of that came from the Muslim community?

No ... I highly doubt it. While I don't think that bagua is necessarily a Taoist martial art, I don't think it's a Muslim one.

[jack]

The circular walking movements in palms was based from the Taoist’s ZhuanTianZun (轉天尊). It’s a kind of circular walking chi-kung.

Mr Kang GeWu (康戈武), a famous PRC martial arts researcher has already make very detail bagua palms research before & confirmed that bagua palms was created by Dong HaiChuan. His research was widely recognized by many martial artists.

[mickey]

Hello Bak Sing,


You are the second person that I have encountered that mentioned a Muslim connection. The person that I met talked with me about a closed door demo of Bagua. What was demonstrated was Black Dragon Bagua. The person told me that the guy the light skill as well; that may suggest a lineage separte from Dong Hai Chuan because the other lineages have do not have it any more.


Please continue to make your case. I want to learn more.


mickey

[fiercest tiger]

Doesnt the Bagua work off the Yi Ching which is Taoist, but love to here what you have to say regarding the circle walking and its meditative values!!

Garry

[TenTigers]

I read somewhere that Dong Hai-Chuan named it Ba-Gua only due to the fact that it walked the Ba-Gua, and only later were relationshiops to the I-Ching added by other teachers.
I had also heard that Dong Hai-Chuan also possessed light skills as well.

[mickey]

Hi TenTigers,

Thank you for forcing me to reread my post. What I meant about light skills is that the training methods were supposedly lost in the Dong Hai Chuan lineages.


mickey

[shiyonghua]

Hey Jack,
any place I can read about what Mr. Kang GeWu wrote? I'd be interested

[Justaguy]

What was the name of the Muslim student of Dong HaiChuan that you mentioned?

One of the only good academic articles on the Chinese martial arts that I've found in English is about Hui Xinyi - "Muslim Martial Arts in China" by Helenan Hallenberg, in the Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs.

She says that many of the Hui martial artists that she spoke with traced Xin Yi and other art forms back to Arab Muslim missionaries that brought them from the Middle East. One traced Xin Yi back to Yue Fei, but said that he had originally learned it from Muslim missionaries that had brought it from Arabia and that it had originated with the Prophet himself. Did you encounter anything along these lines?

I've read that there were hybrid Sufi Taoist practices found in Hui communities (which makes sense, because many Sufis and Taoists have been very in to taking in practices from other traditions) but I haven't heard any specifics from anyone who has learned them first hand. I would be fascinated to hear anything that you came across.

[jack]

ZhuanTianZun (轉天尊):
http://www.e-wulin.com/news/screen.asp?x=4404

Mr Kang GeWu(康戈武):
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Shop/2006/1139.html
http://www.kungfuland.com/bbs/cgi/to...pic=48&show=75

Mr Zhang Quan Liang (張全亮):
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Shop/2006/1101.html

Zhang Quan Liang is also a Muslim but I don’t think he would agree that bagua palms came from Arab Muslim missionaries that brought them from the Middle East.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=41393

Sorry, most of them are in chinese. I can't find english ones.

[Bak Sing]

Thanks for all the interest and great posts!

A couple of things.

1. I am not saying that Bagua as a martial art, was "invented" by Muslims. The hand formations or palms, exist in Taoist arts of Qigong and martial styles as well. But the principle of walking the circle as meditation or training, exists in both Taoist and Sufi traditions.
2. I am in a cyber cafe and do not have my notes with me. I will answer questions specific, later. (names, etc.)

3. Hello to Mickey! You are on the right track.

4. The Muslim influence is present in Hsing-I, Bagua and many variations of these arts. Also family and synthetic styles. During the Ching Era especially, Taoist and Hui cooperation and cross polination in the martial arena, was common.


Bak Sing

[Bak Sing]

I forgot to add, justaguy way to go!

[Faruq]

That's amazing! I never knew that the Saudi's had martial arts. I had always assumed they only practiced swordsmanship, and any Muslim martial arts were indigenous to China, Indonesia or the Philippines before the Muslim traders arrived and had just become Muslim through the conversion of the practitioners. Another question though, did your source say muslim culture was introduced in China "through trade" or "by the sword"?

What was the name of the Muslim student of Dong HaiChuan that you mentioned?

One of the only good academic articles on the Chinese martial arts that I've found in English is about Hui Xinyi - "Muslim Martial Arts in China" by Helenan Hallenberg, in the Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs.

She says that many of the Hui martial artists that she spoke with traced Xin Yi and other art forms back to Arab Muslim missionaries that brought them from the Middle East. One traced Xin Yi back to Yue Fei, but said that he had originally learned it from Muslim missionaries that had brought it from Arabia and that it had originated with the Prophet himself. Did you encounter anything along these lines?

I've read that there were hybrid Sufi Taoist practices found in Hui communities (which makes sense, because many Sufis and Taoists have been very in to taking in practices from other traditions) but I haven't heard any specifics from anyone who has learned them first hand. I would be fascinated to hear anything that you came across.

[mickey]

Hello Faruq,


The thread mentioned Arabia, which is the proper name of that area. Saudi Arabia is a late 20th century term. To simply limit the statement to the Saud family would be grossy incorrect.


mickey

[Justaguy]

That's amazing! I never knew that the Saudi's had martial arts. I had always assumed they only practiced swordsmanship, and any Muslim martial arts were indigenous to China, Indonesia or the Philippines before the Muslim traders arrived and had just become Muslim through the conversion of the practitioners. Another question though, did your source say muslim culture was introduced in China "through trade" or "by the sword"?

Well, that's what the Hui martial artists told the author. She didn't research the accuracy of their lineages, she just talked about how Hui martial artists used their wushu to defiine themselves against the Han majority.

As far if its true or not, I don't even know how you could answer that. Its far enough in the past that all you have are present oral accounts which are contradictory. There may be contemporary accounts of Muslim missionaries teaching fighting skills between 650-1100or whenever, but I haven't come across them. It is the same with some people's contention that Chinese martial arts originally came from Africa. How you could possibly prove that, even if it were true, is beyond me - and certainly beyond our current understanding of history.

There has never been an Islamic invasion of China that I've heard of. Missionaries came over shortly after the Prophet's death, and maybe even earlier. The Mongol invasion of central Asia brought large number of immigrants to China, as well. And there was plenty of trade and diplomatic contact.