Jiao Men / Sect Boxing / Chinese Muslim Boxing

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thank You Tai Chi Bob for your philosophical attempt to qwell the troubled waters of human interaction.

LOL.. Should i reply with a delighted "you are welcome"? You are welcome! <humble bows>

After satisfying the academic ambiguities and establishing a reliable lineage hierarchy, what then? Train! Practice! Refine!

Be Well..

[Bak Sing]

Oh what a can of worms!

Tai Chi Bob, thank you for your sense of humor! (As I had hoped.) No disrespect was intended.

The debate over 10, 12, 14 routine Tan Tui is pointless. EVERYBODY has a Tan Tui routine these days. It has become part of the Wushu/Northern Fist curriculum. If you are getting your info from books, I am sorry for you. Who ever said "complex" was better? As far as the whole mountain of crap regarding Buddhist and Taoist is concerned. The Chinese venerate their ancestors. They tend to mistrust "new" or "innovation". Hence, the wandering Taoist who is the founder of every style and sliced bread as well! Myth! Yes! A VAST CONSPIRACY AND COVER-UP TO CONCEAL THE TRUTH FROM FOREIGNERS! Hardly. The Chinese love their myths and legends, and they are not beyond a bit of hyperbole. We were talking about a connection between the Sufi/Dervish tradition and Bagua's circle walking. Like, oh hey look at this! Maybe I'll try this out. Oh, this is interesting! Peeking thru the keyhole! Look what I saw! Now we have hairsplitting and the Chicken and Egg debate! It's little wonder that some of the folks, who earlier on, wanted to get some info here, have remained silent. Now we have the professional hacks babbling!

[lunghushan]

Professional hacks babbling. That is encouraging.

Who the heck really cares? Did the sufis invent bagua? It seems highly unlikely since no two types of bagua are the same. It seems like the stories that Dong Hai Chuan taught people according to their experience is more realistic.

My personal hypothesis is that Dong Hai Chuan was nothing but a really good waiter, with a lot of experience, and his experience waiting tables in a crowded restaurant was the foundation for baguazhang, and everything else was just stories.

Refute that.

[Bak Sing]

Thank you Lung! The dragon speaks!

[Bak Sing]

Now that we have them going. What about Xingyi Liu He? Why does this Moslem art, have a linear and circular routine that is "very similar" to Bagua?

[lunghushan]

Now that we have them going. What about Xingyi Liu He? Why does this Moslem art, have a linear and circular routine that is "very similar" to Bagua?

Why do you keep calling things 'Moslem Arts'? You really think that xingyi and xingyi liu he didn't exist outside the Moslem communities?

Since there are different versions of these both inside and outside the Moslem communities it stands to reason that there was cross pollination. I don't think you'll be able to prove one way or the other.

Xingyi has 9 palace forms as well. Bagua isn't the only art with 'circular' walking. For example, Ziranmen has basket walking which is the same as the bagua 'circular' walking. In fact, the GBT bagua teaches basket walking just like Ziranmen.

So ... ??? Which came first the chicken or the egg. I don't know. And I don't know anybody who does know.

[Faruq]

Shaolin gongfu is not Buddhist. Practicing it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment...

It is only religious practice when it is aligned with the soteriological goals of that religion. Just because someone of a particular religious affiliation practices some kind of martial art does not make that martial art a religious practice...

I have to admit that although I don't agree with your opinion, you sure make a good argument. Though I don't refute your assertions, I maintain my opinion, and submit the following portion of an article again to suggest that martial arts practice may indeed bring you closer to enlightenment:


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...hp?article=626

"Martial Arts as a Vehicle to Self-Development
Virtually every country (Buddhist or otherwise) in the far-east has an aspect of its culture that extols martial endeavour – in both theory and in practice. China, with its many systems of internal and external kung fu; Japan, with its 'Budo' (i.e. 'Martial Way') arts; Okinawa, with its various forms of 'Te'; Korea with its famous (and relatively modern) Tae Kwon Do, as well its more ancient arts (for example, Muksodo and Tangsodo, etc); Vietnam, with its Vietvodo; Thailand, with its various forms of Muay Thai; Sri Lanka, with its Tamil arts (also practiced in southern India and called 'Kalaripayit'); and a number of other countries including Tibet, Indonesia, Laos and Cambodia. From this brief and incomplete survey, a pattern emerges of a close association between spiritual development and martial art practice. This is not surprising, as the Lord Buddha, living around 500 BCE in north India, was of the 'Kshatriya' (or 'Warrior and King) caste of Hindu society. Such a caste prepared their young men for both action on the battlefield and enlightened leadership upon the country's throne. The Buddha (Siddharta Gautama) was no exception to this rule. The Buddhist scriptures tell us how He was trained in Hindu philosophy, Yoga and martial arts. Hindu society, like its Chinese counterpart, had always acknowledged the link between psycho-spiritual development and that of physical development – but more than this, it was also acknowledged that at the highest levels, the distinction between the 'psychological' and the 'physical' falls away, to reveal a clear, pristine Mind that embraces the universe, within which all things manifest – including our own physical bodies. This philosophical concept of 'oneness' is further emphasised by the fact that just 'silent sitting' in meditation was not enough to transcend the suffering of life on the physical plane. Simply ignoring the 'physical' world does not make it 'go away.' Practicing the in-depth and diverse movements of the many styles of martial art – with a concentrated and developed mind (acquired through seated meditation) creates the perfect balance of 'mind' and 'body.' For when the physical body is aligned, and that body is merged with the 'One Mind,' universal energy flows and there is nothing that can not be achieved. If the Mind is enlightened through seated meditation, that is its essence; when the Mind moves the body on the physical plane, that is its function. All things accord, and there is peace..."

[Zenshiite]

Regarding someone's statement about a hadith that says to practice wrestling... the closest thing that I've found in my studies(I am a Muslim) is a hadith that says:

"Three things that you amuse yourself with are valid, all others are void; practicing archery, training your horse for war, and playing with your wife."

I have personally used that as inspiration for my study of martial arts.

I will take issue with Bak Sing's statement regarding Sufism not being "Muslim," it is indeed Muslim. Any shaykh worth his salt will speak of the necessity of practicing the base form of Islam... Shariat. It's like your root, without which you cannot attain Tariqat, Haqqiqat or Marifat. It may not be "Muslim" in the sense that self-appointed clergymen or Saudi Wahhabists or other such characters are "Muslim" but I would say that Prophet Muhammad(sal) was not "Muslim" in that sense either... nor was Imam 'Ali(as), or any of the other Prophets and Messengers(as). Regardless, Sufism is solidly rooted in Islam and in my experience those that practice "Sufism" without Islam lack substance.

[Faruq]

As far as the hadith, maybe you should ask the guy which compilation he found it in (I'd doubt it was Sahih Buxari), who it is attributed to , and the specific lineage (for lack of a better term) it is from, however weak it may be. I mean, as many hadiths as there are from all the different traditions or lineages, it would be near impossible to have read them all, much less to remember them all even if you had read them all.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Enlightenment, hmmm.. i see the term used quite a bit, but.. i still await a description that is consistent with the surplus of publicity it gets.. so many people refer to some path to enlightenment, but when asked what "enlightenment" is, they fail to give a reasonable answer.. so, it begs the question: if you can't define it, how do you know the path goes there?

This philosophical concept of 'oneness' is further emphasised by the fact that just 'silent sitting' in meditation was not enough to transcend the suffering of life on the physical plane. Simply ignoring the 'physical' world does not make it 'go away.' Practicing the in-depth and diverse movements of the many styles of martial art – with a concentrated and developed mind (acquired through seated meditation) creates the perfect balance of 'mind' and 'body.'

Herein lies the problem, the division of the whole into parts.. "mind and body".. it is truly One thing.. we parse it out into aspects for convenience, but the result is the notion that they are separate.. it is as though we create a game to deceive ourselves into playing..

And, enough of the "life is suffering" stuff.. or, at least if that is your notion, deal with it yourself.. life is GREAT! even when it sucks, it sucks GREATLY! suffering is excess baggage that we simply don't need, and.. all you need to do is set it down and let go of it.. it is sad, for me anyway, to see people sitting around in deep meditations, rejecting so much of the experience that is unique to this GIFT of physical existence.. it is almost an insult to the Source of that which IS, to be afforded this unique opportunity to experience a physical existence complete with its rich depth of amazing experiences.. and then to sit and chant your way past such a gift.. is their pain in living, sure, it's inevitable.. suffering, though, is an attachment to that pain, that somehow to bear the pain serves you at some higher level.. it's just pain, the compliment of pleasure, Yin and Yang.. seeking to avoid pain is to unbalance the equation, seeking to avoid suffering is just choosing not to lug around excess baggage.. it is not an inherent human condition.. even in the darkest of experiences, the most painful of circumstances, i rejoice at the opportunity to experience it.. the alternative is nothing..

Now that we have them going. What about Xingyi Liu He? Why does this Moslem art, have a linear and circular routine that is "very similar" to Bagua?

I wish i cared enough, or had enough background to properly address this issue, but i am lacking in both.. If my position hasn't been clear, i will try to state it more clearly.. I am a simple person (yep, simple minded, too).. i spent too much of my life distracting myself with passions of authenticity and lineage.. only to find that there is a far more dependable way to gauge an Art's worth, practicallity.. Lineage and authenticity is the ego's need to categorize and regulate one's position in the heirarchy of life's struggles.. a practical understanding of principles and their application to any Art will serve you ten-fold over any litany of lineage or claim of authenticy. It is my personal philosophy to live the Art and evaluate its practical application and benefit, discard that which does not serve you in your quest, and assimilate that which does.. In this manner you can truly develop YOUR art, and break the bonds of servitude.. no innovation has been born of strict adherence to a lineage or discipline.. our choice to pursue Internal Arts is also a choice to keep them alive.. alive as contrasted by stagnate rote adherence to form and lineage.. the Internal Arts are living and evolving, alive with potential, and eager to reveal more to the dedicated seekers.. provided the seekers are not distracted by the minutia..

I do have a certain fondness for history and correctness, but there's the rub.. seldom do the stories and myths of antiquity correspond to "correctness", more often it is a preference of beliefs.. so, i watch with some interest as these threads seek to unravel the mysteries of time, but.. my heart is in my practice.

Be well..

PS: Bak Sing: the banter is delightful, and.. without humor, what's the point?

[lunghushan]

There is another martial tradition that claims a Persian influence or something, which is Genbukan, an offshoot of Bujinkan. They claim that they have some old Persian scrolls or something.

So really, I have no idea. It is possible that some martial arts were bred in some Moslem community or came from Persia or something.

So much has been lost in Chinese history and so much is not available to outsiders. And so much has been distorted for political gain.

[mickey]

Greetings Bak Sing,

Looking through this thread a few times makes it overwhelmingly evident to me that you have failed to provide any concrete information to support your belief as to why Bagua may have a Muslim origin.

Additionally, the person that I mentioned that performed Black Dragon Bagua may have received his light skill training elsewhere for this kung is not unique to Bagua.

I have long believed that Bagua is part of the Lohan Shaolin tradition hands down. I am always open to differences in opinion even when my meditation practices prove otherwise. Unfortunately, pearls of wisdom derived from meditation are not accepted as fact during these times.

If you can not bring the hard stuff, I will have to leave this thread alone.

I wish you well with your teachings. I do believe you have much to offer. Forever honor your ancestors, for they are forever with you.


Respectfully,


mickey

[lunghushan]

Bottom line, Bak Sing, is it doesn't matter if everybody believes you or not.

If you can get students to believe your story, that is enough. Then you can teach and make $$$ and be yet another martial arts teacher. LOL

[Justaguy]

I always feel like I’m being argumentitve when I give point by point replies to long posts, so sorry if this comes off that way. But you gave me a long, thoughtful reply so I figured the least I could do is respond with the same. This is probably getting way off topic, though...

Well, that is how I am defining religious practice, as practice oriented towards fulfillment of specifically defined religious goals. If you want to talk about religious practice as something else then we first need to clarify what we are talking about before discussing specific traditions.

Yes, I think its great that you started out by saying what you define religion as - most people use words like that in very imprecise ways. I think that in looking at ways of defining or conceptualizing religion you can fall into framing it too widely that things that clearly aren't religious fall in, or framing it too narrowly so that things that clearly are religious are left out. I’m sure that in the work that you’re doing, such a narrow definition of religion works - I think that there is a lot of value in looking at historical Daoism in very specific detail.

I don't know how well such a narrow definition of religion works at looking at religion in general. Many religions claim to be comprehensive systems that encompass every aspect of life (if they succeed in this or not is another question). It is my understanding that the idea that “religion” constitutes a discrete category of human life, distinct from “politics”, “economics”, etc. is a principle of Western secularism that can’t be taken for granted. Other cultures may have similar views, but many do not. It is also clear that there have been reactions against Western secularism from a religious standpoint - rejecting the idea that religion can be put in a specific box - Christian fundamentalism in the US, and political Islam, for example.

In the Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Modern Capitalism, Max Weber shows how a particular religious (as you define it) orientation - Calvinist predestination, directly lead to business and social activities that are completely worldly (hard work, investment, etc.).

In Islam Observed, Clifford Geertz shows how in Indonesia and Morocco people drew on Islam as a source of resistance against European colonialism, adopting religious orientations (strict scriptural literalism) in response to a political crisis towards political ends.

In Politics of Piety Saba Mahmood shows how teachers in classes on how to live according to Islamic ideals in an Egyptian piety revival movement don’t separate religious acts (having the correct attitude towards preying) from worldly acts (not arguing with your family members) - teaching that preying correctly will lead you to act harmonious with your family and vice versa.

I think that its clear that a lot of what people who claim to adhere to a given religious tradition consider part of that tradition isn’t directly related to transcendence. I’m more interested in seeing how they tie it all together than making divisions between authentic and inauthentic practices. I think that the only way that I could tell people what is real Buddhism or Daoism is if I were a Buddhist or Daoist - which I’m not. I’m an aspiring social scientist and I’m trying to make sense of the meaning people invest in what they do as best I can. Sure the Buddha never practiced Dahong Quan, but how then do Shaolin monks relate it to his teachings?

If this is true, then it is very interesting. I personally have never seen such an explanation. I have spent time in China, I have known Hui people, and I have never heard of this before.

Did you talk to Hui martial artists about the relation between their arts and their religion/ethnic identity? If so, what did they say? (That’s not a challenge, I'd be interested to hear)

Sorry if i didn't make it clear, I was basing this on the article - Helenan Hallenberg, "Muslim Martial Arts in China: Tangping (Washing Cans) and Self-Defence" - that I mentioned in my first post.

She is not a martial artist, but was interviewing Muslim martial artists in her work on ethnic identity in China. Maybe she saw things that were lurking beneath the surface, and maybe she put them on the spot by asking irrelevant questions, and they told her what she wanted to hear. I dunno - give me your email address, I'll send you the article and you can decide for yourself.

Again, if you want to argue about the definition of "Daoist" then this is a separate topic. I'm currently writing my doctoral thesis on medieval Daoist practice, I have spent a great deal of time reading both primary and secondary sources on Daoist beliefs and practices and have furthered my studies in both Taiwan and mainland China. When I use the word "Daoist" I know exactly what I am talking about and in my opinion these concepts, not being exclusive to (and in fact predating) the Daoist religious tradition, should not be labelled "Daoist."

I didn't mean to suggest that you don't understand what you mean by "Daoist". I meant that most martial artists who called their practice "Daoist" meant something very different by it than you do when you say it isn’t. When I heard it used, it was usually a claim to authenticity based on general sense of "tradition". While some teachers do believe that their styles are associated with or derived from Daoist neidan, or claim to be initiated into Daoist lineages themselves - most that I've spoken too (granted, not that many) don't. It took me a while to reconcile the contradiction in those two understandings of Daoism in my first Bagua master. He had a reputation for really understanding Daoism. He described many things that he has spent his life doing as "Daoist" bagua, taiji, qigong, fengshui, etc. But when I asked him if he believed in Daoism, he said no. Daoism as an adjective for traditional practices was different than Daoism as a faith (Daojiao in both cases).

Based on my own research into this practice and my own study of baguazhang. Zhuan tianzun is a type of ritualized stepping (common in Daoist ritual practice, the most famous being the Yubu or Steps of Yu), specifically a ritual practice of circumambulation while chanting hymns that occurs during specific stages of the zhai ritual. Having studied baguazhang myself, I just don't see any connection whatsoever between the two except for the circularity; circumambulation is common in many religious traditions. I would love to be proven wrong, I never said that it is impossible that baguazhang stepping was perhaps inspired by this; however, I personally prefer the simpler explanation that circular stepping is an effective combative technique. Personally I believe that the only reason that a connection was made between the Zhuan tianzun practice and bagua stepping is that historians were attempting to justify the original myth that Dong learned bagua from some mysterious Daoists. This (the shadowy Daoist teacher) is a common device in Chinese popular hagiography and I personally believe it to be hyperbole.

Personally, I always thought the idea that Dong Haichuan was a Chuanzhen Daoist was questionable because he was a eunuch. If you're not supposed to waste your jing through sex, I would imagine that cutting your balls off would be even worse.

Sorry if I was being overly snippy in my original reply, I just think that beyond a certain point in tracing the history of martial arts practices you get into foggy territory where no absolute statements can be made either way. Even if there were direct similarities in the two practices, it could easily be a coincidence. I think that Bruce Frantzis said that he saw Taoist monks in a Yunnan temple practicing circle walking meditation that looked just like bagua. He used that as proof that bagua was part of Daoist practice stretching back thousands of years. These days, they may very well have been adopting bagua to their meditation, not vice versa.

And yes the Shadowy Daoist teacher is a common way to establish legitimacy in Daoism - and I'm sure a lot of the time its not true. Are Bagua masters who use it to establish the "Daoist" roots of Bagua saying things that aren't true in a way that is authentic to Daoist tradition? Just a thought.

[Justaguy]

My personal hypothesis is that Dong Hai Chuan was nothing but a really good waiter, with a lot of experience, and his experience waiting tables in a crowded restaurant was the foundation for baguazhang, and everything else was just stories.

Refute that.

Well, cleary he was initiated into an obscure cult of Guan Gong that worshiped him as the patron God of Restaurants through ritual waitering. He then saw that it could be extended to being a bouncer, and from there to a body guard.

Everyone knows that.