Jiao Men / Sect Boxing / Chinese Muslim Boxing

[Scott R. Brown]

Oh Yeah!! I almost forgot!!!

Sufism

Google:

Sufism reoriented = 1,420 hits
Sufism in Islam = 215,000 hits
Sufism history = 186,000 hits
Sufism definition = 76,200 hits
Sufism and Islam = 224,000 hits
Sufism in India = 109,000 hits
Sufism islam = 226,000 hits
Sufism rumi = 34,800 hits

Webster’s Dictionary: Sufism, noun

Encyclopedia Britannica:

Sufism

also spelled Sufiism mystical Islamic belief and practice in which Muslims seek to find the the truth of divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God. it consists of a variety of mystical paths that are designed to ascertain the nature of man and God and to facilitate the experience of the presence of divine love and wisdom in the world.

Islamic mysticism is called, tasawwuf (literally, “to dress in wool”) in Arabic, but it has been called Sufism in Western languages since the early 19th century. An abstract word, Sufism derives from the Arabic term of mystic, “sun”, which is in turn derived from “suf”, “wool,” plausibly a reference to the woolen garment of early Islamic ascetics. The Sufis are also generally as “the poor” fuqara, plural of the Arabic faqir, in Persian darvish, whence the English words fakir and dervish.

[lunghushan]

Anyways, my personal hypothesis is also that there is no such thing as China. That everybody from China is really an Eskimo.

I've never seen China. I've never been to China. So how do I know this is false? Even given all the video evidence, photo evidence, etc., that there really is a country called China, I have never seen it.

So if you expect me to believe that bagua is from Moslems, without even showing me a photo or a video of a form, or any evidence to back up your assertion, when I don't really have any hands on proof that China itself even exists, is kindof bogus.

[Bak Sing]

Sufi predates Islam. To be in the world, but not of it.

Sufi is not a doctrine or dogma, therefor it cannot be an "ism".

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. have all been "Sufi".

Why don't you guys like Eskimos?

[cjurakpt]

Tai Chi, Hsing-I or Bagua. They maybe based on principles, theories and symbolism from Taoism, but they are not Taoist.

forgive my ignorance and nitpicking, but if something is based on principles, theories and symbolism from Taoism, it would seem to me that by definition that makes it Taoist: I mean, what's left for it not to be? if I base my life view on the principles, theories and symbolism of a given philosophy, well, then, I think I am in fact practicing that philosophy; if a martial art is based on the principles, theories ans symbolism of a philosophy, etc.

anyway, I think in general the argument is worthless: nothing is pure - as soon as you pass something on to someone else, their whole range of experience is immediately dumped into the mix; meaning that, if you are study an art from a Muslim and study another art from a Taoist, whatever you practice is going to be influenced by both people, their philosophies, religions, etc.; then, when you pass it on to the next guy, you will do it in some amalgameted form of what you learned;

furthermore, who really cares? I mean, it's an interesting little historical exploration, and one can theorize all one likes, of course: to draw a parallel between sufi practice and taoist circle walking doesn't necessarilly link them directly - it points out commonalitites of form and function intrinsic to the human condition: circles and lines - we find them in nature, we find them in cultures in a myriad of different ways; I'm not saying it isn't possible, but certainly there would needs be some documentation to that effect: even still, it's not really reliable - look at the origin sotries of tai chi? a bunch of claptrap that can't be proven, and probably the reality is radically different than what most people say anyway...

[Scott R. Brown]

Sufi predates Islam. To be in the world, but not of it.

Sufi is not a doctrine or dogma, therefor it cannot be an "ism".

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. have all been "Sufi".

Hi Bak Sing,

-ism:

1. An action, practice, or process; terrorism, favoritism
2. A state or condition of being; pauperism, parallelism
3. A characteristic behavior or quality; heroism, individualism
4. A distinctive usage or feature; malapropism, Latinism
5. A doctrine, theory, system or principle; expressionism, capitalism, Platonism, Sufism, Taoism

Sufism does not predate Islam. It is the principles applied by Sufis that predate Islam. All you have done is take universal principles and apply the term Sufi to them. It is these “principles” that are universal, not the “practice” of Sufism. It seems you may be trying to say: There are many roads, but only one path! There are many methods, but only one WAY (TAO)!

You surely have the opportunity to take commonly understood terms and redefine them according to your whims, but you must understand that the consequence is others will not understand your point very well. Arbitrarily re-defining terms without informing your audience provides no one benefit. It does not make you appear to have greater wisdom or special information others do not possess. It creates misunderstandings that need not occur.

[Bak Sing]

Actually, I have done no such thing. In your attempt to put me in an intellectual "box", you have trapped yourself. Names are pointless terms you throw around to attempt to be "intellectual". Lacking any real practice, and being on the Web, you substitute reality with your sad arguments on semantics, etc. and your desire to be seen as "sage" or "wise". I permit you to continue to be deluded for as long as you like. Think of it as my gift to you. And do not confuse Tao and Sufi, as the same thing. They are alike.

[Bak Sing]

p.s. You all need to develop listening skills.

it's what I said, not what you think you hear.

As far as Tao, did I say "pure"?

more than symbols, principles and theories, is a little thing called "REALITY".

if you can't understand, when did that become my problem?

I am not your teacher. (thank god)

BYE BYE

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bak Sing,

I am sincerely sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Peer into the mirror of your own comments and you will see yourself. Also you might consider my subscript quote.

Try to relax a bit.