Minimum number of sets

[Yao Sing]

If you had to reduce your sets to just 5 which would they be?

What would be the core 5 that would cover the bulk of the material?

[mantid1]

This will be different for everyone but I would like to go on record for saying that you need 0 number of sets to become a proficient fighter.

IMO the single forms are great for preserving certain elements of culture, history and are a great "catalog" of techniques for each particular style.

I think forms are fantastic ways to work cardio and develop speed, strength and flexiblility. But other than developing these aspects they do not do so much for the "fighter". I tell my san shou people that instead of running for 30 minutes to do forms at a medium pace for 30 minutes. If you are doing cardo for fighting why not do it using fighting techniques. The bad thing about this is the forms become very "sloppy" and we risk the chance of our "catalogs" being ruined.

The best approach is two person drills, Techniques like the cck sau fa and A LOT of free fighting.

But, if you are like me and only have a partner for an hour a day the single sets are better than nothing.

Sorry to take it off topic a bit Yao.

[Yao Sing]

That's ok and I'm in agreement but I'd prefer you answer the question.

Sets are also a catalog of techniques which is why I asked the question. Some styles have an all-encompassing set the contains all the techniques of the style.

Other have 'core' sets or essentials. I know NPM has core sets like Bung Bo, Luan Jie, and Ba Zhou plus the Zhai Yao series.

I was going to ask this on the main forum but I didn't want to wander too far from may main interests.

[mantis108]

I am in agreement with Mantid1. BTW, we have discussion about this in this forum before.

Essentially in TCMA, one form is more than enough. Take a look at the so called internal styles (ie Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi) or internally inclined styles (ie Baji, Baihe, etc.), they all have one form that they emphasize as "mother" form. It is not the width but the depth (hence the term internalization) that is of utmost important. It is no difference in Tanglang especailly in the Greater Meihwa line. Most if not all of the manuscripts point to the Luanjie/Lanjie as the mother form of GML Tanglang.

But then we human as mere mortals loath monotonic existence. So we chase after a variety of things; thus, the need to chow down forms after forms thinking or rather hoping we can find some great secrets that nobody but the seeker alone gets it. This is the mindset of the seeker/student. The truth; however, is that there is only one truth and the truth is the truth. If one can not see it in the mother form, what chance is that he/she can find IT in the many other forms that follows. BTW, the truth, as IT has myriad of facets, here is defined as Quan Li (philosophy of pugilism). If the truth can not be applied regardless of mode of applications (ie reasoning, fighting, personal and nation security, etc), what good is this "truth"?

There are differences in Wushu (martial skills), Wuyi (martial arts/cultivations) and Wuxue (martial academia). Wushu at best is about the quantative nature (the width and the depth) of a martial skill set. Wuyi is about the quality (the width, the depth and the height) of martial knowledge. Wuxue is study the core of our existence, being human, and a destiny of responsible guardianship of nature and its beings both sentient and non sentient. Which is it that you seek?

Personally, it is not a question of how many forms. Rather it is which one of those forms that you have distilled is important? why is it important to you? More importantly, what are you really going to do with it?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mooyingmantis]

I strongly disagree with the idea that forms, whether solitary or two-man, are not necessary in Chinese martial arts. Most people that I know who practice this philosophy have lousy fundamentals. No form, no finese. And finese is certainly lacking in modern tournament fighting.
Forms can teach rhythm, footwork, precise movement, breath control and fighting combinations. Yes, these things can be learned separately. But why blacklist a tried and true method of teaching these skills.

Though Mantid1 says,

This will be different for everyone but I would like to go on record for saying that you need 0 number of sets to become a proficient fighter.

I know that he has learned numerous forms and can perform them, both emptyhand and weapons, at a moments notice. He is a skilled martial artist and I would question whether he would be the excellent practitioner that he is without that type of grounding in forms.

Hey, if all you want to do is learn to fight effectively without forms, take Western Boxing.
Just my not very humble opinion.

Now for the original topic, which we are way off. I have not learned the nearly one hundred forms that some say comprise 7* PM. However, I have seen that the forms are very redundant. I have also recently spoken with two instructors who have nearly completed training in the system and they both said the number of forms is not necessary.
How many could you boil it down to? No idea, I am not at a level where I could give a knowledgeable response.
Richard

[Sifu Darkfist]

I strongly disagree with the idea that forms, whether solitary or two-man, are not necessary in Chinese martial arts. Most people that I know who practice this philosophy have lousy fundamentals. No form, no finese. And finese is certainly lacking in modern tournament fighting.
Forms can teach rhythm, footwork, precise movement, breath control and fighting combinations. Yes, these things can be learned separately. But why blacklist a tried and true method of teaching these skills.



Hey, if all you want to do is learn to fight effectively without forms, take Western Boxing.
Just my not very humble opinion.

Now for the original topic, which we are way off. I have not learned the nearly one hundred forms that some say comprise 7* PM.
Richard

First Off Being a Baji Man as well as a praying mantis man i believe that forms that include the most effective movements as well as descriptive roots of power generation and timing are essential. However if you are a dedicated student you could get his out of a sort "Zai Yao" or mother form as described by M108.

However if you do not isolate the moves and repeat relentlessly you never get the fundamental knowledge intended by the masters that created them.

On the other hand, what makes a good fighter is FIGHTING and hard training.

it is best if they incorporate transitional moves (which forms are supposed to simulate) in that hard training.
My Master sya it best when he says "you want to learn to fight? go to the Bar pick on toughest guy then fight, then continue to other bars one day you will be a fighter"

But if you want to learn sophisticated power generation made simple and natural run you zai yao forms until you drop.

Then take all your best (personal favorites) and compose them into a grandfather form for you to practice. You will improve drastically.

If planning sport fights,,, Get five really good combinations down cold then mix them up and match them into different orders drill them to death and good luck at the fight
DF

[Yao Sing]

Thanks for the responses guys but I wasn't really looking for the 'deep' answer. I really had some specifics in mind.

I should have said something like 'If you could only learn 3 NPM sets which would you pick?'.