My first cage fight

[Ray Pina]

First and foremost, I want to give credit where credit is do.... I would never think about entering a cage fight if it wasn't for the skills my master has shared with me. I'm a confident fighter. I feel I can protect myself.

The guy I lost to trains a gym that has produced champions... someone has to win, and in dealing with the reality, the guy who won has had more MMA experience both in that type of training and in fighting for the cage.

I took one baby step.

The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters.

I don't care about my record anymore. I'm going to go back in the cage again and again. If I have to lose 7 more in a row I will.... I just want to get better.

If I was 18 or even 25 I'd agree with you guys and jump ship. I'm 32! There's a sea of kids training MMA, BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc..... my only hope is a different way.

I'm honest in my success and failure. I'm also honest when I tell you my small, old teacher can kick my ass. He has something I want.

[Ray Pina]

First of all, congrats on stepping up fighting in the cage. Honestly, I thought you'd never do it.

Thanks I apreciate it. To be honest, I enjoyed the cage more than the ring. Looking back on San Da, that **** is nuts. It's just constant stand up fighting. Exhausting.

I like the cage

I was curious as to if your feelings on the The Ultimate Fighter contestants have changed. Seeing as how these guys have all done well in amateur shows and many in professional shows, that should be a testament to their skill which you were doubting. Every single one of them would most likely destroy that guy you fought. Do you still think they are unskilled?

My opinion varies from fighter to fighter. I've seen some of those guys realy improve. The black dude with the bright yellow hair, he's become more well rounded.

The one I'm most impressed with, respect the most as a skilled fighter, is Sanchez. He's fantastic.

But there remain guys that I saw on the show who haven't impressed me. Granted, being in the cage is completely different than being outside.

For example, I look at my fight and say, "Why did I not push off his hips and get my knee in there and create space.... face him, throw some material?"

I do it 3 times a week with my students. I do it when I go out to Throwdowns. It just didn't occur to me at the time.

Maybe I wanted to conserve energy. Maybe I was too busy making sure his knees didn't break my rib... everything but what I should have done.

So from that perspective, I understand better now. But at the same time, I can say what they did was wrong in the same way I say what I did was wrong.

Sometimes I guess I can speak out of turn. But I don't do it as a means of putting someone up or down, I do it as a means of making sense of all this to myself. And it also motivates me to go fight.

That was something I was thinking about today.... that the fight is almost besides the point. 90% of it is the focus in training and preparing and working yourself up to it.... getting in the cage was actually a relief.

[lunghushan]

"The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters."

That's the thing. You need a fight school. Otherwise it's like you're driving around the street and then trying to win at Formula-1.

[lunghushan]

"The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters."

That's the thing. You need a fight school. Otherwise it's like you're driving around the street and then trying to win at Formula-1.

I mean, the bottom line is it doesn't matter if you like what you're being taught. You're not being taught in an environment that will make you a great fighter.

So if you train with Coach Ross, for example, or Team Quest, or somebody like that, you will probably increase your chances of becoming a great fighter.

If you continue with your style, no matter how much you like it, you probably will never become a great fighter.

I brought this up before, the lack of serious partner training in CMA. In fact, I've given up on any serious partner training.

So you decide, do you want to win, possibly with slightly different techniques, or do you want to keep your techniques and lose.

Or maybe there's a third option, but I don't know what it is. Because you're only getting older. That's teachers like yours game. They teach you stuff, say you have to spend years and years getting it right, so you spend years and years, and then at the end you're too old to do anything but teach.

Sorry to say it, but that's their game. It sounds like you are at the wrong school if you're wanting to be a fighter. Teachers like that excel at wasting your time.

[Faruq]

Puerto Rico has really good waves and is much cheaper than NY. I can save money and surf all winter. I can maintain what I have, and the coast guard base, complete with a crew that trains BJJ, is right up the hill.

Yeah, I heard PR was a lot cheaper. A buddy at work was telling me to check out Utuado if I wanted to go, because he has family there, and I could stay with them. The lucky son of a gun went last month and came back with a tan and a smile from ear to ear. It's supposed to be beautiful out there, and the level of pro boxers out there is world class, though I haven't heard anything about gong fu out there except for the Wei Hung student that was in the Warrior Within (something Cambrelen I think). Plus, I don't know if I could get all the herbs I wanted out there without a hassle. Which pueblos even have Chinatowns there?

[SevenStar]

First and foremost, I want to give credit where credit is do.... I would never think about entering a cage fight if it wasn't for the skills my master has shared with me. I'm a confident fighter. I feel I can protect myself.

I don't question your teacher and what he's taught you. What I question is this:

The guy I lost to trains a gym that has produced champions... someone has to win, and in dealing with the reality, the guy who won has had more MMA experience both in that type of training and in fighting for the cage.

I took one baby step.

The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters.

you are not in an mma atmosphere, have no real coaching, no cornering, but yet you are trying to compete with guys who do. What I question is not what he's teaching you, but what he CAN'T teach you - where will you get these things? By your own admission, these guys are training for mma and have more experience in it than you. This means that you are already behind the curve and will only fall even further behind. this is why I say I would find a second coach. Sure, stay with mr. chan, but at the same time, I'd find an mma coach. Just my thought on it.

I don't care about my record anymore. I'm going to go back in the cage again and again. If I have to lose 7 more in a row I will.... I just want to get better.

which is commendable, but at the same time, nobody can be happy losing all of the time. you want to test yourself and see that what you have been doing paid off. It made you the victor on that day.

If I was 18 or even 25 I'd agree with you guys and jump ship. I'm 32! There's a sea of kids training MMA, BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc..... my only hope is a different way.

man, the bjj teachers at my school the black belt and the browns are all in their 30's. One is 39 and has place in the top 3 in EVERY national level competitionhe's entered for like the past 5 years. He beats kids all the time. Merry is 30, I'm 28, ST and MK are up there somewhere... 30 doesn't signify the end of the road. Like I said, I'm not saying jump ship. I would just supplement with a fight coach.

[Ralphie]

Ray,
The problem you have on the ground is experiential and technical. The guy held you in side control because you had no guard to pass, and you laid flat on your back. I doubt it was just that he had a great side control, as much as it was you are not very experienced on the ground. Just getting in real mat time with a grappling coach would teach you to get up on your hip and perform a proper escape without hesitating or doing something that an amatuer would do like lay flat on your back.

I'm 36 and started BJJ when I was 32. Learning ground skills at your age will only benefit you.

[Faruq]

Yeah Ray, it sounds like how good your teacher is, is immaterial to the issue of cage fights. It doesn't sound like he's interested in cage fights, probably because you don't generally get in them on the way to and from work on a daily basis. You like the challenge of cage fights, and go out of your way to enter them, so for that part of your martial interest you need to spend some of your weekly training time with MMA guys. Once again, that has nothing to do with your teacher's knowledge, but rather with the fact that you're interested in cage fights in addition to learning your teacher's art.

[Knifefighter]

I'm honest in my success and failure. I'm also honest when I tell you my small, old teacher can kick my ass. He has something I want.

Have you ever gone head to head, 100% against your instructor? My bet is that you haven't (or at least not in quite a long time) and that if you did you would destroy him at your current level.

[omarthefish]

But at the same time, you are fighting - representing his style. From that perspective, you'd think he'd want to see you at 3-0, not 0-3. Or at least work your corner, if he has any fight / cornering experience.

From what I can tell so far, Ray is not "representing his style"...or at least not his teacher. That's actually one of the main things that defines a "disciple" in this context. Ray made mention of his disciples and the fact that he is not one of them. That means that the teacher does not consider Ray to be his rep and Ray can not be said to be an official representative of anything but himself. There's a whole mountain of unknowns here but it's entirely possible that Ray's independance and his insistance on getting out there and getting experience against the teachers advice is one reason why he has not been chosen for discipleship. Every teachers thought process is different and they all have their own standards but this is a common one. Disciples reflect directly on their teacher regardless of wether they are acting with or without the teachers appoval. It really is like a family relationship that way. When a kid does well, the parent is proud. When he gets into trouble it tends to reflect on the parent even if the kid acted against the parents wishes.

....you can build your students up, but in the meantime, you are fighting NOW. they don't have the corner or fight experience to help you train or to give advice during your fights. you are setting yourself up to allow them to have great careers if they fight, but at the same time, sacrificing your own...

Which may be a perfectly worthy sacrifice. Ray may turn out to be a far better coach than fighter. We all know coach Ross is.

[MasterKiller]

man, the bjj teachers at my school the black belt and the browns are all in their 30's. One is 39 and has place in the top 3 in EVERY national level competitionhe's entered for like the past 5 years. He beats kids all the time. Merry is 30, I'm 28, ST and MK are up there somewhere... 30 doesn't signify the end of the road. Like I said, I'm not saying jump ship. I would just supplement with a fight coach.

I'll be 34 in December. I'm 5'11 168 lbs. But after 18 months of solid MMA training I can tap younger, stronger, bigger people pretty regularly, as long as they aren't significantly better. Conversely, of course, I regularly get tapped by smaller people with more experience.

I also tapped 2 high school wrestling coaches. In Oklahoma, wrestling is big-time, so they were no slouches.

And the thing is, I'm not really that serious about the training. I don't plan on ever stepping into the cage, so I have to begrudgingly admit I don't train as hard as some of my partners. I do all the drills, and I don't ever quit in class, but I also don't always push myself that hard, either.

If I had Ray's mentality and drive to fight, I'd probably be pushing myself to be significantly better than I am, which is scary, because I dominate just about all the traditionalists I spar with now (stand-up, clinch, and on the ground).

Also, my long fist style is pretty complimentary to MMA striking method. Footwork isn't siginificantly different, striking and blocking aren't siginificantly different, so I didn't have to adjust much in that regard when I started training. Slipping punches was a completely new concept, but otherwise...

[bodhitree]

I found the opposite with my transition from traditional to sports

I thought everything was different, footwork, stance, punches, kicks, everything. I always had a little bit of boxing in my toolbox, but everythingis different. I do think some traditional arts have a lot of value for fighting, but not necessarily for sports.

[Ray Pina]

The fights are the same, it's just the environment (care/ring) and quality of the person figthing that is different. Punches still come in the same lines, just faster and with more intention. The kicks are still rounded and looking for your thigh, just heavier.

The ground, I was surprised at how tight he held his side mount, but I've been there --- don't want to say thousands -- but definitely hundreds (350 upwards) times before. I will make it in the thousands before next summer though.

I view it like surfing. I know how to surf. I now how to paddle out, duck waves, turn, catch one, make the drop and go. I know hot to get barreled... I even know hot to get air.

The thing is, some waves are more gnarley than others. They might look perfect from the beach, but you get out there and they're thick and throwing over a nasty reef and are inverted concave.... you don't just paddle out and dominate a wave like this. It usually take two to three week long surf trips just to start feeling comfortable.

My training makes me feel comfortable with strikes, kicks, grabs, throws and ground. Obviously room to improve. The game aspect, I'm just going to learn that on my own. There's no one else with you in there anyway.

I know I'm stubborn, but I'm on a mission. The world doesn't need another BJJ/Thai Boxer.... but it would be cool if I could do to guys in the cage what my master does to me. In reality, I'll only have been with him 5 years in February. Little by little.


As for age, obviously I don't think I'm old. I'm actually in the best shape of my life. I just don't think it's a good time to take up Thai Boxing. There's so many people doing it already at such a high level, how do you compete with them at their own game when you're starting at 32 and at 23 they've already put in 8 to 10 years?

I'm sure I could join a local gym, and with my background pick it up quick and start kicking guys around, but I'm talking about performing at the highest level available.

Tapping a coach and tapping an Abu Dabi champ or two different universes. Personally, I believe we set our own limits -- and anything is possible -- but at 32, I'd rather tighten up what I got instead of branching off everywhere.

If I got KOed by a hook I wouldn't run to Gleasons boxing gym. If I got KOd by a cresent kick I wouldn't run to the local Tae Kwon Do school.

Likewise, I gave up my head. My arm wasn't torn from me... I wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle locked.... I rolled over for a terrible attempt and gave up structure. Amatuer mistake in an amatuer venue.

I'm not freaking out. I'm actually exited. My stand up did it's job and I was alright until I ****ed up. That's an improvement from someone kicking me around and busting me up.

I feel good. I'm actually going to see if I can get a rematch. I thought I matched up well with that guy.

[hjt]

i made the transition from kung fu to MMA, actually my sifu did muay thai before he did kung fu and trained us in muay thai also, now i m doing grappling and MMA with a different instructor because i want to learn more and i know staying in one place may help me for now, but not in the long run.

good dude, it seems like youre in denial , not trying to knock you, but you want to do MMA with your style, youre not doing much, by losing. youre just proving the non believers right, saying that CMA is not effective at all.

i think what some people are trying to say is, if youre going to continue to do MMA, you need to find a school with a good ground and stand up game, learning on your own, friends, and your teach who probably has a limited ground game, you will not achieve what you want.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

First and foremost, big props to you for stepping in to the cage and competing. You have one up on many of us on the sidelines who should do this as well. That being said, my biggest concern is your master and his approach to your fights. I know that respect and admiration are two qualities that sometimes negate the truth, the truth being that you should probably find another place to train because he is not supporting you and seems to fear you sparring one of his disciples because he knows you will show them up. Ask yourself this, Ray, do you really think your instructor could best you or is it a respect issue. It angers me to see an instructor's ego get in the way of someone taking their art to the next level. I am not trying to judge your master, but IMO you need to train elsewhere and find a training group full of fighters, not disciples falling to their knees at the slightest hint of their master's displeasure.(Yes, if anyone caught that, it was from The Last Dragon. When I say who's the master, you say, Shoo-nufff!