My first cage fight

[splinter]

Ray, I don't think anyone's saying that you should go out and take up thai boxing, or BJJ.

What they're saying is that you should go and train with some good COMPETITIVE thai boxers, and grapplers. Play your game, but against people who are trying to play at the same level as you.

If nobody that you train with has similar goals to your own, you simply aren't going to get the best training.

I mean, if you think about it, you're saying that that guy had REALLY good side control, right? So, maybe you should go train with HIM or someone like him, and try to get out of that position again.

If you don't train with people who challenge you, it's really tough to get any better.

[SevenStar]

The fights are the same, it's just the environment (care/ring) and quality of the person figthing that is different. Punches still come in the same lines, just faster and with more intention. The kicks are still rounded and looking for your thigh, just heavier.

bingo - the quality of the people fighting. this is where a trainer comes in handy. whatever it is that you aren't doing right, he should be able to help with.

My training makes me feel comfortable with strikes, kicks, grabs, throws and ground. Obviously room to improve. The game aspect, I'm just going to learn that on my own. There's no one else with you in there anyway.

no argument there. however, there is a difference between being comfortable somewhere and being effective somewhere.

I know I'm stubborn, but I'm on a mission. The world doesn't need another BJJ/Thai Boxer.... but it would be cool if I could do to guys in the cage what my master does to me. In reality, I'll only have been with him 5 years in February. Little by little.

which is fine. We're not suggesting you take up MT. We are suggesting you get a fight coach and work you grappling. I really like what you're trying to do, but your stubborness is preventing you from doing it the right way.

As for age, obviously I don't think I'm old. I'm actually in the best shape of my life. I just don't think it's a good time to take up Thai Boxing. There's so many people doing it already at such a high level, how do you compete with them at their own game when you're starting at 32 and at 23 they've already put in 8 to 10 years?

time doesn't necessarily equate to high skill level. Regardless of that, we aren't suggesting you take up thai boxing.

I'm sure I could join a local gym, and with my background pick it up quick and start kicking guys around, but I'm talking about performing at the highest level available.

it's all a process. Are you competing at the highest level now? No. right now, you would get destroyed at the highest level, as would all of us. But you work your way up to it. Get some Ws as a journeyman and work your way up. That's the only way. Take cloud. he beat you, had a few other fights, now he's turned pro. it's a process.

Tapping a coach and tapping an Abu Dabi champ or two different universes. Personally, I believe we set our own limits -- and anything is possible -- but at 32, I'd rather tighten up what I got instead of branching off everywhere.

you can't tighten what you don't have though, and you really don't have a ground game. The only branching we're suggesting you do is work your ground game. getting a fight coach is for your own benefit. Having been in a ring / cage, he can tell you what you are and aren't doing wrong, openings he's noticed, etc. - just the same as your cornerman would, and you now acknowledge that you want one of those.

If I got KOed by a hook I wouldn't run to Gleasons boxing gym. If I got KOd by a cresent kick I wouldn't run to the local Tae Kwon Do school.

No, you wouldn't. BUT, if you were a pure grappler and were getting beat by striking, common sense tells you to work on your stiking game. same thing here. you need to develop your ground game.

Likewise, I gave up my head. My arm wasn't torn from me... I wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle locked.... I rolled over for a terrible attempt and gave up structure. Amatuer mistake in an amatuer venue.

bingo. But the lack of a proper escape attempt from side mount was a complete novice mistake. this is why ground work would come in handy. you rolled over for the terrible attempt twice. that's part of the novice mistake. you didn't plant your feet, and you turned backward. that's what's telling us all that you need ground work.

I'm not freaking out. I'm actually exited. My stand up did it's job and I was alright until I ****ed up. That's an improvement from someone kicking me around and busting me up.

I feel good. I'm actually going to see if I can get a rematch. I thought I matched up well with that guy.

and that is a great thing. I respect that. But at the same time, looking at it realistically, without working your grappling, the result will be the same. Even if you striking is better, can you stop all of his takedowns and stay off the ground? if not, you need some grappling.

[lunghushan]

See ... Ray wants to take what he has, and practice in an MMA venue against good fighters. Keep the same style, but get higher level partner work.

Exactly what I posted a while back, but everybody jumped on me.

Anyway let us know what you find, Ray, if you manage to accomplish that. I think it might be a lost cause, though, given people's attitudes.

There doesn't seem to be CMA MMA .... there's BJJ/kickboxing MMA, but there doesn't seem to be any CMA MMA.

[MasterKiller]

See ... Ray wants to take what he has, and practice in an MMA venue against good fighters. Keep the same style, but get higher level partner work.

Exactly what I posted a while back, but everybody jumped on me.

And everyone is telling Ray the same thing they told you--Find an MMA gym and train with them. Your insistence that you do not want to learn a "different style" and obtuseness about trying to correct other people in someone else's gym are what got you blackballed.

I'm a Long Fist fighter. I left my kung fu school and went to an MMA gym. When I fight, I use my long fist techniques. But I was also smart enough to keep my mouth shut and pick up what works for them as well, especially concerning the ground game.

[lunghushan]

And everyone is telling Ray the same thing they told you--Find an MMA gym and train with them. Your insistence that you do not want to learn a "different style" and obtuseness about trying to correct other people in someone else's gym are what got you blackballed.

I'm a Long Fist fighter. I left my kung fu school and went to an MMA gym. When I fight, I use my long fist techniques. But I was also smart enough to keep my mouth shut and pick up what works for them as well, especially concerning the ground game.

Find an MMA gym. About all you will be able to do is long fist. If you do anything else they will look at you very strangely.

The bottom line is CMA is not boxing/kickboxing/BJJ. And I never went to an MMA gym and corrected them. Obviously you people can't read very well.

[Knifefighter]

I know I'm stubborn, but I'm on a mission. The world doesn't need another BJJ/Thai Boxer.... but it would be cool if I could do to guys in the cage what my master does to me. In reality, I'll only have been with him 5 years in February. Little by little.

You've spent five years training with this guy, yet you can't even hang a full round with amateur MMA fighters. Your persistence is admirable, but I think the point has been proven. Five years with someone who really knows what they are doing and you would at least be able to hang more than 1:54 in an amateur venue.

I'm not freaking out. I'm actually exited. My stand up did it's job and I was alright until I ****ed up. That's an improvement from someone kicking me around and busting me up.

Your standup sets you up to get easily taken down and was taken advantage of by your opponent. This structural weakness has shown itself in every clip you have shown.

The ground, I was surprised at how tight he held his side mount,

The fact that you thought this just shows how much trouble you are in when you are on the ground.
That particular side control with both arms on the far side is just about the easiest of all side controls to escape.

I wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle lockedLikewise, I gave up my head. My arm wasn't torn from me...

Actually, you gave your arm also. He just took your neck instead of your arm.

II wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle lockedI wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle locked

That's because you would have to have had better position than you had for either of those to occur.

[Ford Prefect]

I figured I would lend my voice to those calling for you to find a trainer. Luckily Xing Yi is very similar to boxing, so you don't even need to let them know you're a traditional guy if you don't want. They'll just think you have a funky boxing style.

It really is the only way to get to where you want. You won't get there fighting the guys in your throwdowns, which is now readily apparent. You also won't get there training with guys who don't fight and don't know the fight game. You don't need to stop training or using your style. Just have a coach help you blend it in with skills that are more condusive to the fight game.

What was it, TUF1 that you first started in on all this on the board? Imagine if that day you had started training with an MMA coach where you could blend kung fu into his training paradigm?! You'd be so much better. How many more years is it going to take? How many more years will you waste and never get back?

[omarthefish]

There doesn't seem to be CMA MMA .... there's BJJ/kickboxing MMA, but there doesn't seem to be any CMA MMA.

Except for this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBoxX48_tAo

[lunghushan]

Except for this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBoxX48_tAo

I can't get Youtube at work anymore. Could you please elaborate on what you are pointing to?

I guess my point is, in most every major city, you can go do MMA which is boxing/kickboxing/grappling.

But where can you find CMA MMA schools? The closest thing is Sanshou and sanda, right? But that's with big gloves and is basically just longfist with some full hand glove grappling. Do they use any palm techniques or anything?

[omarthefish]

I can't get Youtube at work anymore. Could you please elaborate on what you are pointing to?

Highlight reel from a pro-MMA fighter I know. He's an eagle claw guy.

But where can you find CMA MMA schools?

There's more than you think. They just don't always advertise it. Omega's place, the dude in the clip I posted, is a regular McDojo. He says so himself. They just happen to have a serious fight team that trains there on certain nights.

[lunghushan]

Highlight reel from a pro-MMA fighter I know. He's an eagle claw guy.

There's more than you think. They just don't always advertise it. Omega's place, the dude in the clip I posted, is a regular McDojo. He says so himself. They just happen to have a serious fight team that trains there on certain nights.

Well I found one place in Bothell, WA that does some kind of modified JKD and some really bad Wing Chun that has an MMA night (nothing pro or anything) but the instructor instead of letting me do MMA tried to talk me into doing his really bad Wing Chun.

If those places exist they are the extreme minority rather than the majority. For some reason you guys always bring up the few counter examples and thinks that disproves the rule.

If anybody has a list of the CMA fight schools, please let me know, but I'm not worried about it anymore. I've given up on it because I got tired of searching around. It seems like if Ray wants to be a good fighter, amateur, Pro, whatever, that he should be finding a good fight school.

And the good fight schools seem to primarily be NOT CMA schools. Just because there are a few around doesn't mean they are all over like other MMA schools.

[Ray Pina]

it seems like youre in denial , not trying to knock you, but you want to do MMA with your style, youre not doing much, by losing. youre just proving the non believers right, saying that CMA is not effective at all.

It was my first cage match. I believe I could have just as easily won .... than should I post here that I am some internal champion for winning one amatuer fight?

I could win my next one... or the one after that, or the one after that. It's amatuer. Right now my goal is to just gain experience fighting quality fighters. Let people say what they want. I'm getting better with each fight.... I actually find my biggest improvements come after a loss.

[Ray Pina]

Seven Star, Ford Perfect, Knife Fighter and others... I really do understand what you're saying.

I'm in a transitional period of my life right now.... might be moving ... but your opinions have been noted. I might look around just to get a higher level of daily competition.

I would have considered Serras, which is around the block from my job, but his personally (as seen on TUF) kind of bothers me. Gracie's NYC academy is just an hour train ride away.

We'll see what happens. But I apreciate the feedback.

Ray

[FatherDog]

First, props for stepping up, and for not trying to sweep failure under the rug.

[
1) Don't rush. I was down and receiving knees, but I was able to absorb most of them. However, I lost because I forced changing the position when I should have stayed and let my man spend energy.

"Staying and letting your man spend energy" means you're going to sit there and eat knees for the rest of the round. People who are serious about competition have conditioned themselves to the point that they can easily hold down and throw knees for an entire round on someone that is "staying and letting [them] spend energy." If you are in a bad position, get out of it, don't hang out waiting in vain for your opponent to tire.

At one point he was using his forearm to choke me. That was a problem I had to get rid of. Then I saw the arm. Thing was, I could make that mistake and recover against 85% of the guys I play with.

Which is why everyone keeps telling you you need to find better people to train with.

I spent some time talking to the folks at Pitt Pen. Some of them were pros. Good people. Great coach. One of their guys was supposed to fight the guy who broke my nose in Dec. He got hurt and couldn't fight. Turns out he was already fighting pro MMA on the day I faced him in amatuer San Da. That made me feel better, and made a whole lot of sense.

But anyway, these guys had awesome ground technique.

Pitt's Penn guys came in several times to train at BAMMA when I was there. They are tough guys and good fighters. They do /not/ have "awesome" ground technique, and if you think they do it is further evidence that your ground game is greviously lacking.

[lunghushan]

This whole conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with my pot-head guitar teacher back 7 years ago.

He was an awesome guitarist, had his own band, and made an okay living but never took the next step, which was to market himself and write some decent songs.

I would bring it up, and he'd go, "Yeah, that's a good idea." And then roll himself another joint, or take another bong hit.

The last thing he told me was, "Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll have to get started on that."

I went back to check on him the other day and he's still doing the same thing, except his girlfriend (who was pretty hot) dumped him.

Ray, JUST GET A FRICKING FIGHTING COACH!!! Good grief, why do you want to waste your time trying to figure it out?