The power of Chi

[charyuop]

Man, it takes courage to do it in front of so many people LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxQ-e0GStpg&NR

[qiphlow]

hey! he stole my secret technique that only works on my students and specially trained innocent bystanders!
ba$tard.

[MASTERforge]

Probably not! Thats why we need more scientific study into chi. Either to understand these amazing feats or to debunk the rubbish being taught out there.

How can our arts survive when it is still very much a closed subject with limited publications or information on what can be achieved.

Make your own judgements but I wouldnt want to study with a teach that demonstrates something like this.

LEigh

[charyuop]

What is really sad is that I am sure people had to pay for the "Master" to go there and show that seminar

[sholo86]

This type of "chi power" had been discussed in numerous forums and it still amuses me people get pulled in on stuff like this. Try the link and check out what this news reporter had to say about the "no touch knock-out" using chi and decide for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1nzD-n25Q

[imperialtaichi]

Probably not! Thats why we need more scientific study into chi. Either to understand these amazing feats or to debunk the rubbish being taught out there.

I am sure a lot of his students would think that it is real. Otherwise, they wouldn't continue learning from him. Chances are, even he would think it was real. That's why we need more scientific study on it. I am not suggesting whether it is real or fake, but even if we can find other reasons other than Qi to explain this, we would have learnt something.

Personally, I always advice my student to cross-check with reallity and not just practice with each other, just in case we ended with some un-intended psycho-somatic response which gives us a false sense of ability.

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

If you watch the vid carefully you will notice the student bending his knees in preparation for his JUMP backwards.

I have been shoved backwards a few time in my life, not once did I bend my knees and jump before I fell backwards.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree.. that video is laughable.. but, there are no restrictions, that i am aware of in physics, that prevent someone from cultivating that level of proficiency in the control and use of energy.. of course, anyone with such discipline would also be unlikely to demonstrate in such a manner.. i haven't seen anyone exhibit that level of real energy control, but.. i don't reject the possibility..

Be well..

[RonH]

If this guy wanted to be more believable, the one that was on the ground shouldn't have rolled over and over, but he should have just been pulled by the ankles, maybe lifting them up into the air a little. If he really did emit the level of energy required to knock the guy back at that distance and make him roll back towards him from that distance and at that speed, lifting the ankles and dragging him across the mat should be a snap. I believe in the ability, I'm just not sure how credible this guy is.

[Repulsive Monkey]

As quite clearly noted by a few here already this is definitely a fake demo. And you're right it does take a lot of courage to get up in front of a crowd and show the public how fake your skills are and lie to people with this rubbish. Watch the ankles and its all explined. The recipient prepares his own launch with the co-inciding and laughable direction of the sender's Ki blast.
I've never seen such mocking choreography in my life.

Bin it!

[imperialtaichi]

...And you're right it does take a lot of courage to get up in front of a crowd and show the public how fake your skills are and lie to people with this rubbish.

Hello Repulsive Monkey,

I'm not validating if it was real or not, but I think the parties involved may actually believed that it was real.

Some years ago there was this Tai Chi teacher in Sydney who did similar stuff, but not to the same extent. There was one time that he was at a big gethering, throwing his students around, then asked the public to come up and tried to demonstrate his skills on them as well. But when he could not do it on the public, he was booed of stage. He was totally confused as to why he couldn't do it, and the students were equally confused.

The problem was, he thought it was real, the students thought it was real, without realizing that they have conditioned their thought to certain ques and gestures of the teacher. If they did not think that it was real, they would not have asked the public to participate and be booed off stage.

Cheers,
John

[Faruq]

Amazing! I wonder if he can fly like Li Mu Bai, or explode chickens at 20 paces? LOL.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hello Repulsive Monkey,

I'm not validating if it was real or not, but I think the parties involved may actually believed that it was real.

Some years ago there was this Tai Chi teacher in Sydney who did similar stuff, but not to the same extent. There was one time that he was at a big gethering, throwing his students around, then asked the public to come up and tried to demonstrate his skills on them as well. But when he could not do it on the public, he was booed of stage. He was totally confused as to why he couldn't do it, and the students were equally confused.

The problem was, he thought it was real, the students thought it was real, without realizing that they have conditioned their thought to certain ques and gestures of the teacher. If they did not think that it was real, they would not have asked the public to participate and be booed off stage.

Cheers,
John

Hi John,

This is a pretty good example of “changing the context” that I have mentioned in the Internal training of strength thread.

According to the instructor’s and students’ context, projection of Chi worked. They did not understand how their desires and conditioning influenced their experience. Once the audience was brought in the context changed and the results changed. This is also what occurs when someone is a tough guy in their MA class, but gets their butt kicked in a street fight. They are tough according to a limited context. In the street the context changes and they are found to be inadequate. In your example, to the students’, the Chi projection worked because they wanted it to work. They did not understand that it worked because the context was strictly limited and the instructor and students wanted it to work. This is a social dynamic that occurs with all groups, from peer groups to professional organizations.

This is what commonly occurs to many students when they truly believe they have experienced the “internal power of their instructor”. Because they are part of a social group that reinforces the false belief it becomes conditioned into their minds and they self justify and rationalize inconsistencies in order to maintain the façade. Since they have no understanding of body mechanics it is easier to accept the explanation given and not to question it. Indeed questioning may be discouraged or perhaps seemingly plausible explanations are provided. But just because a plausible explanation is given does not mean it is accurate. To these unknowing students their impressions cannot be denied. For them the experience IS real. They do not realize their understanding is limited or that their attitude and belief system affects their perception. They perceive the results they want to receive. When forced to face reality our egos tend to preserve the status quo of our belief system by demonizing those who reveal the false façade. So naysayers are ridiculed. These innocently decieved students don't want to be confused with facts. Once the Truth is admitted it changes their perception and they risk the loss of the social support system provided by the class. The student must then decided if they will choose to ignore the Truth in order to remain part of the group or risk being ostracized as a non-believer.

This is also why innovators tend to be loners. They may not adhere to an accepted worldview or social structure because they seek to explore beyond social and intellectual limitations. As a result there is no place for them within established social groups. They must choose to be independent from social groups or establish their own which in turn will seek to enforce its own social structure by ostracizing those who do not adhere to the values of the new group. A person who repeatedly questions the basic belief structure and social structure of a group is ostracized in order to preserve the integrity of the group. If an individual wishes to explore alternative views beyond the established paradigm, he is generally forced out of the group.

I first noticed the phenomenon of seeing what we want to see when I was about 10 years old. I didn’t actually understand its implication until many years later though. It was Christmas day and I looked out the window of my bedroom towards the roof top of the condominium across the way. I observed a long oval of snow that was left by Santa’s reindeer and sleigh. It was clear to me that the snow came from Santa because I lived in Southern California at the time and it does not snow there. When my friends would talk about how Santa was pretend I didn’t believe them. I saw clear evidence that he did exist, otherwise how could the snow be on the roof of a building where is never snows AND be in the exact shape that would be left by a long row of reindeer and a sleigh? Sometime later I had to admit that Santa was pretend, but I couldn’t understand how the snow got onto the roof. Eventually I realized that it was frost on the roof that had melted from the outside edges of the roof towards the middle. But at the time I saw what I wanted to see and interpreted what I saw according to my expectations and desires. Wanting it to be Santa did not make it Santa and faced with arguments that Santa was pretend I felt I had solid evidence to defend by opinion. What I witnessed fit into the context of my belief system; unfortunately my false conclusion was reinforced by my desire to believe in a false truth, my innocence and my misunderstanding of the evidence. This is what occurs with many MA students.

We tend to see what we want to see. Many times our mind/ego will ignore evidence that is contrary to what we WANT to believe. Other times it will create evidence to support our beliefs out of nothing in order to preserve the integrity of our worldview which is closely tied to our self-view/ego. This is self deception. It is innocence and inexperience that causes us to misunderstand evidence combined with the need or desire to believe what we believe. This is why I have chosen the subscript I use below. We tend to want Truth to conform to what we want it to be and are unwilling to change our views in order to conform ourselves to the actual TRUTH!

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Scott,

I know exactly what you mean. And I see it happening all the time. That is why I always warn my students and myself not to fall into such trap.

However, I still believe in internal energy and Qi; Why? Because I see it as a way of explaning phenomenons. Just as a model to explain the world, no more and no less to the way contemporary science constructing theories and models to describe and predict phenomenons in the physical world. If it works, I'll use it.

For example, one of my students (a medical doctor) reckons that all these Yi Qi projections works by influencing the way we move our bodies very subtley. Which, I do not argue with. When he tries to move his body the same way without using the Yi Qi methods, it just does not work. His conclusion is that the Yi Qi projections causes the neuromuscular system to behave a certain way, which we cannot consciousely control. So even though he does not believe in Qi, his moves with the methods of Yi Qi.

For me, if it works, that's all I care about.

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi John,

Very well stated! I actually agree with your point of view. Please permit me to wax philosophical here. LOL!! Like that is something new for me!

A couple of things about my personal world view:

As much as I try to avoid labels here is one I use for myself, I consider myself an idealistic pragmatist/pragmatic idealist. I actually want the Qi view to be found true which is my idealistic side, but since I am a pragmatist as well I must view everything through a materialistic lens first.

I recognize in my posts I appear to be a Qi naysayer; in reality I am actually not! I have had my own experiences that could be attributed to Qi. One of my personal goals is to try to determine the truth of things. My purpose is to conform myself to Truth/Tao, not to attempt to get Truth/Tao to conform to what I want it to be. One of the techniques I use to discover Truth is to question everything constantly and repeatedly no matter what it is. Even if I believe I have come to what I consider a reasonable conclusion on a matter, I will still question it constantly and repeatedly. (This is actually the Socratic method.) I have found too many times that what appears unreasonable to me today, becomes reasonable tomorrow in the light of more evidence as well as what may appear to be reasonable today may become unreasonable tomorrow in the light of more evidence. I normally do not qualify this about myself because I would have to do it every time I voice an opinion. I am happy to finally find a time and context with which to explain myself. To me, if we become complacent in what we “think” we know we are dooming ourselves to ignorance. So my method of questioning reality or the personal views of others is never meant as a personal challenge but as an effort to determine the Truth of a matter.

Another principle I try to adhere to is,To understand the essence/root of a thing is to understand all that springs from that root. The conclusions we come to are based upon the foundational principles we begin with. Foundational principles are the root of our conclusions. If we understand the foundational principles we or others accept as truth we are better able to understand the conclusions that are adhered to regarding any topic under discussion.

As an easily understood example: Christian’s use the Bible as the source of their foundational principles and from this source comes the conclusions they arrive at that defines their world view. Moslems use the Koran, Haddith, etc. as the source of their foundational principles and this determines the conclusions they arrive at that define their world view. To understand completely a world view we must understand the foundational principles upon which the views are based. At the heart of world views are foundational principles that are either accepted or rejected based upon our desire for them to be true. They cannot be rationally demonstrated to be True. We accept them on faith even if we think we have a rational reason for accepting them.

The most common experience many of us have had that perfectly illustrates this point is what many of us learned in our High School Geometry classes. Geometry is founded upon three assumptions: point, line and plane. These three cannot be proven to exist. We must assume they exist on faith, by social agreement. From these three assumptions we devise postulates and from the postulates theorems a built. So all of the conclusions we arrive at in basic geometry are founded on basically pretend phenomena. This is what actually occurs with all world views that humans have devised, they are all based upon un-provable principles. We accept them or reject them for what we think are rational reasons, however in reality they are all castles built upon sand.

What does all this mean? We all believe what we believe because it works for us. That is all! While I may argue for a specific point of view, I respect everyone’s point of view regardless of what it is because all world views are founded upon principles we have chosen to accept, but cannot be demonstrated to actually exist in Truth. Mine included!!