Training hard

[goju]

what i like about the type of training on the bag is after you do it hundreds of times for months and months the attack becomes automatic and when you spar wham! you land the technique out of reflex

anyway im off to train

[Frost]

sorry i'm late on this one, but this is not always the case
i've been in plenty of muay thai gyms where we do kicks for reps
my friends who've trained in thai camps in thailand (not farang gyms) have reported the same there.

EDIT- just want to add that the key is intent.
one of the most often repped out kicks i've seen is push kicks
now you can walk out a ton of cr@ppy push kicks on the bag and not get anywhere;
but if you put in the intent, take your time, catch the bag on the back swing, and reverse its momentum like you were stopping an incoming opponent then you'll really see some results.

one of the biggest differences between western and thai methodologies in teaching/training muay thai is that thais will have you rep something out ad nauseum and let the technique kinda fix itself, where as western coaches a lot of times will jump on you each and every single rep with critiques to help you achieve perfect form.

this carries over to boxing too. i brought up before someone posting vids of pro boxers on the boxingscene forum (and coincidentally training vids of fedor on the bag as well). i was initially disappointed in the pro fighters, even big names, because they weren't killing the bag, they weren't maintaining a high work rate, and they weren't really going at it like it was a fight. one thing i did notice in each case (especially fedor) is they were replaying the fight in their heads & making sure to drop that one big shot with perfect execution, over and over.

I would call them "mindful reps" instead of "mindless reps".

i suspect this difference comes about from the time they spend training, f you are a full time kid in thai land you can rep for ours to get it right, you do nopthing else but thai boxing if you only had a few hours every other day to train they might do it differently (just speculating here)
the other big difference is that the thai's and the pro fighters are also getting in plenty of sparring and real fights, they don't need to treat the HB like a sparring session, or fight it/use it for conditioning/timing because they get these things from actual fights. If you have 60 or so fights by the age of 16 then its seems silly to use the HB like this, why simulate timing etc with a bag when you are fighting all the time? It the same for Fedorsand the pro boxers, they have so much ring time behind them they don't need the bag to build timing, movment endurance etc.

[monkeyfoot]

Hi people thanks for the replies

I am currently using a choice of the following jows

- http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/Wisest%20Oil.jpg
(i also have the green one which is apparently stronger)

- http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/ditda.jpg

- and some new stuff I got
http://www.tcmherbs.co.uk/images/shenggushui88ml.jpg


Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of any of these...

C

[sanjuro_ronin]

sorry i'm late on this one, but this is not always the case
i've been in plenty of muay thai gyms where we do kicks for reps
my friends who've trained in thai camps in thailand (not farang gyms) have reported the same there.

EDIT- just want to add that the key is intent.
one of the most often repped out kicks i've seen is push kicks
now you can walk out a ton of cr@ppy push kicks on the bag and not get anywhere;
but if you put in the intent, take your time, catch the bag on the back swing, and reverse its momentum like you were stopping an incoming opponent then you'll really see some results.

one of the biggest differences between western and thai methodologies in teaching/training muay thai is that thais will have you rep something out ad nauseum and let the technique kinda fix itself, where as western coaches a lot of times will jump on you each and every single rep with critiques to help you achieve perfect form.

this carries over to boxing too. i brought up before someone posting vids of pro boxers on the boxingscene forum (and coincidentally training vids of fedor on the bag as well). i was initially disappointed in the pro fighters, even big names, because they weren't killing the bag, they weren't maintaining a high work rate, and they weren't really going at it like it was a fight. one thing i did notice in each case (especially fedor) is they were replaying the fight in their heads & making sure to drop that one big shot with perfect execution, over and over.

I would call them "mindful reps" instead of "mindless reps".

Oh I agree, it has it purpose but from my MT training it seemed more like that part was geared to the conditioning aspect and far less to the practical one, yes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi people thanks for the replies

I am currently using a choice of the following jows

- http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/Wisest%20Oil.jpg
(i also have the green one which is apparently stronger)

- http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/ditda.jpg

- and some new stuff I got
http://www.tcmherbs.co.uk/images/shenggushui88ml.jpg


Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of any of these...

C

Our very own Dale Dugas makes some of the bets Jow you can get...

[Pork Chop]

i suspect this difference comes about from the time they spend training, f you are a full time kid in thai land you can rep for ours to get it right, you do nopthing else but thai boxing if you only had a few hours every other day to train they might do it differently (just speculating here)
the other big difference is that the thai's and the pro fighters are also getting in plenty of sparring and real fights, they don't need to treat the HB like a sparring session, or fight it/use it for conditioning/timing because they get these things from actual fights. If you have 60 or so fights by the age of 16 then its seems silly to use the HB like this, why simulate timing etc with a bag when you are fighting all the time? It the same for Fedorsand the pro boxers, they have so much ring time behind them they don't need the bag to build timing, movment endurance etc.

you're right on the amount of time to train - 5 or 6 days a week, 2 sessions a day, upwards of 4 to 6 hours; from the time they're like 8 years old.

sparring is not as common in thailand as you'd think.
some camps go hard
other camps only go light
when you're fighting every 3 weeks, you don't really need as much sparring - you can get your experience in the ring.
even the pro fights; at the lower levels, are barely what you'd consider an interclub.
they take their time; true - because they do have the time, but also because the authentic thai style is very relaxed. almost like a sniper. i've seen some camps that didn't even make standard practice of combos.

when i brought up the concept of not just wailing away on the bag the first time i mentioned my boxing coach from fort worth. he's young for being as old school as he is. he and his dad were both promoters, he used to write a boxing newspaper out of mexico city, and he's keeping the zepol brand of boxing gloves alive with his classic label. his quote was "if you throw every shot full power, none of them will be." this was in reference to me ripping off machine gun combos on the bag & really attacking the bag like I was a swarmer like tyson or something. his guidance was to take my time with it, set up my shots, and have perfect execution when i throw.

on a side note...
one of my friends competed in vegas last weekend.
watching his fight, i realized how important distancing is.
he was fighting out of a very traditional thai stance, which is built around doing the damage with kicks, but he kept trying to throw a loaded right hand.
it was a bit like peter smit back in the old days.
in the outer most range he was getting owned by kicks (not even good ones).
in long punch range he was doing well with that right.
in medium punch range he was getting owned by punches & had no guard to speak of -
because he kept trying to reach out & force the issue on the knee range where he was doing well.
his big right hand and his knees were all that he had confidence in.
gone were the kicks he normally uses in the gym
(yeah i know the stress of a bout can be a mfer, but this guy's experienced).
keep thinking if he had a little more faith that his kicks could do damage, then he probably would've done much better in the fight - the other guy was kicking more but they were pitter patter kicks and nothing like what my boy throws.

last time i worked out with him was a few weeks ago and his bag work was the busy kind; he might've benefited from more time spent throwing round kicks with bad intentions.

EDIT:
SJR - depends. Repping out kicks for speed is totally conditioning; ie 30 kicks in 30 seconds, 10-20-10 (left round, knees, right round) at the end of a round, etc.
i like using samkor as an example; because his "cracking the shell" technique is some of the best out there.
here's how he kicks
here's how he hits the pads
here's how he spars
here's how he fights

when he kicks, he kicks to destroy
when the pad holder is holding for round kicks he round kicks (ie reps)
sometimes the reps are for speed/conditioning, sometimes the kicks are more paced & measured.
when he spars it's more about timing and placement than blood & guts

[goju]

warm up
skip rope 15 minutes
stretch 40 minutes
shadow box 2 five minutes rounds
speed bag fifteen minutes
makiwara 1oo times each hand
sanchin 20-30 minutes

Geki Sai Dai Ichi 40 times


bobbing and weaving under rope with punches 20 minutes

tai sabaki:
head evasion 15 minutes
punch evasion 15 minutes

kakie 20 minutes

forearm conditioning on tree 100 times each side
toe conditioning with bat 100 times
shin conditioning with iron bar 15 minutes
slapping body with mung bean bags 15 minutes

boxing bag work 30 minutes

[sanjuro_ronin]

Beautiful clips PC, thanks.

[Frost]

i second that thanks for the clips

[monkeyfoot]

Lol I apologise, the above post regarding Jows was intended for a completely different thread...how the hell it got here I have no idea!

Thanks the reply anyhow