How old is the Jab?

[SifuAbel]

I got into a discussion, over at a certain web site that will remain nameless, about when the jab was born. One, lets say not so bright, individual claimed that the jab did not exist until the middle ages with the introduction of fencing. I find this to be the most skewed and ass over head line of thinking yet to be presented at that certain web site not to be mentioned.

Am I led to believe that in the million years we have been somewhat human and at least in the last 10,000 years of known history that not one person figured out how to straight punch with the front hand?

If there was any time for Ocam's razor to be summoned it is now. What is most probable? That sometime in the last 1,000,000 years or only the last 400 did man develop enough motor skills to punch with the front hand.

Please let me have your thoughts.

[sunfist]

Firstly, they are probably mistakenly referring to the rennaisance and particularly post rennaisance methods of fencing.

I guess a jab can be defined by two things, in terms of being strictly a punch with the leading fist, then its pretty much a no brainer. However the jab could also said to be defined by usage, being distinctive insomuch as it is usually designed to protect the integrity of your defence from an opponent whos trying to close rather than acheive a KO by itself (although there are certainly fighters who have used it in such a way). This sort of strategic use of the jab could indeed be said to date to when we first started applying gentlemanly rules in our combat, such as swordplay, as opposed to a battlefield mindset. But even then I would agree that someone, somewhere, probably did it before, be it the greeks in pankration or whatever.

[Ben Gash]

A straight hand punch with the lead hand isn't by definition a jab. All chinese longarm styles make heavy use of a lead hand straight arm punch, but I'm sure many practioners would be insulted if you accused them of jabbing.
A jab implies a quick, probing attack with no follow through, and is almost exclusive to western boxing. It kind of makes sense to imply that it has it's origins in renaissance swordsmanship, but I doubt it really. As an aside, has anyone else found that Gim/Jian practice really helps your straight punching?

[Ben Gash]

same time, same points

[sunfist]

great minds...

[TenTigers]

opening move in Tan-tuie.

[David Jamieson]

well, who knows.

Did you know that in Native american cultures, hitting someone with your fists at all was an alien concept to them for the most part until the arrival of europeans.

Prior to this, straight up feats of strength and wrestling were exclusively used to have contests and settle disputes.

so "the jab" as a defined term wrapped around a simple straight lead hand punch probably is more recent than we think although the actual actio of jabbing with the fist has been around for as long as it has been since the first guy did it.

But overall, I agree, it is silly to attribute something to something based on teh categorization and definition of it. Most things pre-exist their categories and definitions with a few exceptions.

[Royal Dragon]

H0mo Sapiens 1.0 first came to be about 100,00 years ago, and were physically identical to us but lacked our intelligence. The "super" intelligence we know today kicked in about 35,000 years ago.

There are tribes of primitive hunter gatherers today that live just as man did 35,000 years ago. One of the biggest pass times are basic gymnastics, and wrestling. Striking is almost nonexistent, and consists mostly of open handed cracks to the face as set ups for takedowns.

My guess is you see beating with some sort of clubs before punching.

The Jab was probably developed in English Boxing, and is more recent

[Pork Chop]

I don't think the jab was too popular until Daniel Mendoza in the late 1700s.

I have a big book on the history of bare knuckle boxing, but this article gives a lot of good info:

http://www.bnmaa.co.uk/?Page=Boxing

I think Roman and Greek boxing tended to utilize different punches than those we see today like overhand closed-fist chops and back fists.

The other thing about boxing is that it seems every few years someone re-invents something. As awkward as some older boxers look in ancient footage (see Harry Greb), there were other fighters who were very "modern" by comparison.

[SifuAbel]

H0mo Sapiens 1.0 first came to be about 100,00 years ago, and were physically identical to us but lacked our intelligence. The "super" intelligence we know today kicked in about 35,000 years ago.

There are tribes of primitive hunter gatherers today that live just as man did 35,000 years ago. One of the biggest pass times are basic gymnastics, and wrestling. Striking is almost nonexistent, and consists mostly of open handed cracks to the face as set ups for takedowns.

My guess is you see beating with some sort of clubs before punching.

The Jab was probably developed in English Boxing, and is more recent

And you know this? How? What tribes? It doesn't take super intelligence to crack sombody over the face with your knuckles. Its just not probable that something like a jab couldn't or hasn't been seen until modern times. It is definately not rocket science.

[Pork Chop]

There's a difference between a jab and a straight lead.
Prior to Mendoza the straight lead was a power shot.
Mendoza was one of the first to make it a noncommitted shot to set up other stuff.
I'm sure the straight lead was used from the beginning of time- as it's very instinctual to put your power hand in front.

[SifuAbel]

It s matter of time and experience. Cognatively speaking there is no difference between us and bronze age people. Set off a couple of nukes and see how fast everything goes cave man again.

If you fight with your fists at all, Eventually you will develop all diffenet types of tactics. Again, we are talking about human bio-mechanics not external technology.

300 years is still way too rescent.

[Royal Dragon]

And you know this? How? What tribes?

Reply]
I was watchig footage of the Zowie tribe in the Amazons on discovery channel, and I payed close attention to the tactics they used during thier wrestling matches. Incedentally, both men and women wrestle equally in that tribe.

The Zowie get down on all fors, and sort of bear craw in a circle around eachother looking for the right time to engage. A jab is not practical from this position.

>>It doesn't take super intelligence to crack sombody over the face with your knuckles. Its just not probable that something like a jab couldn't or hasn't been seen until modern times. It is definately not rocket science

Reply]
No, I'm just pointing a referance. True modern man is only 35,000 years old, and is based on H0mo saipeans that evolved 100,000 years ago. Same physical bodies, but improved CPU

[PangQuan]

I got into a discussion, over at a certain web site that will remain nameless, about when the jab was born. One, lets say not so bright, individual claimed that the jab did not exist until the middle ages with the introduction of fencing. I find this to be the most skewed and ass over head line of thinking yet to be presented at that certain web site not to be mentioned.

Am I led to believe that in the million years we have been somewhat human and at least in the last 10,000 years of known history that not one person figured out how to straight punch with the front hand?

If there was any time for Ocam's razor to be summoned it is now. What is most probable? That sometime in the last 1,000,000 years or only the last 400 did man develop enough motor skills to punch with the front hand.

Please let me have your thoughts.

my feelings are this:

we can not possibly pin point the exact time a jab was first used.

i would be so bold as to say the jab has been around nearly if no as long as the punch....only makes sense...

[Ben Gash]

And yet my style has no jab at all for entirely practical reasons.