How old is the Jab?

[SifuAbel]

And you know this? How? What tribes?

No, I'm just pointing a referance. True modern man is only 35,000 years old, and is based on H0mo saipeans that evolved 100,000 years ago. Same physical bodies, but improved CPU

I dunno. Some of these guys in the ring seem to still be running on 386.

So it took 34,700 years to figure out how to punch with the lead hand?

You are assuming that because an amazon tribe used ritual wrestling that this applys to all men everywhere at all points in time.

[lkfmdc]

History (and historical documents) are our friends

Greek boxing consisted of the lead hand being used to defend (parry and shield) with the rear hand being used to swing and chop (like a hammer fist). Very little straight punching. This is documented and supported by numerous contemporary accounts and artwork

Boxing in England, when "revived" was primarily a swing and chop art. The chop, as well as the "pivot blow" (spin back fist!) was made illegal around 1700 or so... still, swinging and hooking were more prevelent than straight blows...

In addition, early bare knuckle boxing, like many TMA, involved switching leads. ONe minute left lead, another right lead... this was also how many schools of fencing were practiced at the time

The evolution of the dueling sword and the adoption of a single stance and thrust strategy resulted in a fundamental change in how fighting was done. More simply, those fencers that switched leads either switched to a single lead or DIED... very little room for argument about "effectiveness" in live blade sword dueling

This change in fencing influenced bare knuckle boxing, where, as already cited, Mendoza applied the same concepts to the fist and created the "jab"...

Sorry, but this is all well known in hopology and well documented

[Ben Gash]

Prior to it's cross pollination with western boxing Savate didn't use closed fist strikes to the face. The same is true to an extent with Muay Thai. Kung Fu traditionally emphasises punches to the body.
Also, to go back right to the start of this thread, a lead hand punch is not necessarily a jab.

[Royal Dragon]

So are we saying that the use of weapons, and sheild influnace empty hand fighting?

The arm that was once used to controll a shield, now became the lead covering hand even when a sheild was not there, and then an extension of that is what the jab developed out of?

It makes sense when you think about it.

The jab probably goes back to Roman times, when disarmed, disheilded soldiers had to continue on fighting (till they got hacked to bits anyway)

[lkfmdc]

The primary unarmed method of a warrior is a grappling art... you aren't going to box a guy with a sword... you MIGHT, and it's a gamble, wrestle them and control their weapon hand...

Classical jiu jitsu was the unarmed art of the Samurai, fixated with wrist grabs, arm controls and freeing the hand from said holds

The Mongolians emplyed "Cilnem" a combat form of wrestling similar in some ways to Sumo!

Classical Greek thinkers felt that upright standing wrestling was good for combat but that free style with ground work was not suitable for combat training..

Many feel Savate evolved from the necessity to kick when the hands were engaged in retaining your weapon and immobilizing your opponent's. Think of the classic "locked swords" position. Early Savate was LOW kicks to the groin, shin, feet and knees

[unkokusai]

Please let me have your thoughts.

My thoughts are that you got into an argument somewhere else and didn't like the fact that someone was disagreeing with you, so you brought it over here where that person couldn't respond and you could try to make yourself feel better by saying, "Hey guys, I'm right! Right? Right?"



Not working out exactly as you'd hoped here either. Oh well...

[IronFist]

Didn't oldschool boxing use that upside-down fist stance? Was there a jab from that on-guard position?

[WinterPalm]

The points made about early h0mo sapiens are pretty much false.
The correct date is closer to 130,000 years ago...this date means that we now have fossil evidence that suggests these were BIOLOGICALLY modern h0mo sapiens. Our biology has not changed since this early time. Our culture has definately adapted and grown; but the ability for humans to learn and think is no different then as it is now. Only difference being that we now stand on the shoulders of giants and back in the day (130,000 yrs ago) we had to start from scratch. We are much smarter and intelligent due to the ability to grasp and understand complex arrangements of symbols, but the ability to do this is no better or worse than back in the day. Only difference is exposure to what came before and more refined ways of thinking and manipulating abstract symbols.

As all humans are equal in this biological sense, there can be no primitive. For to suggest that one is primitive suggests that another is modern and this usually implies a grading scale...this is inherently racist and old fashioned. A concept that may help is historical particularism...it's been around since the 1930's and states that every social group or society, culture, human cluster, exists within its own unique historical past, present, and future and cannot be compared to any other.

Sorry for the rant but this is the discipline I've spent a good amount of time researching and hope to work within.

In terms of the jab I can't add anything other than if it works for you use it! Or a HIGH KICK TO THE HEAD.

[Pork Chop]

Didn't oldschool boxing use that upside-down fist stance? Was there a jab from that on-guard position?

yeah, but that old school stance was a lot more dynamic than you might be thinking, the defense was a lot more active than a lot of today's stuff. Modern boxing gloves take up a lot more space than a bare fist so your defense can be a lot more static- shelling's a more viable tactic when wearing gloves.
There's a cool clip of harry greb with his active defense on his website. It's pretty cool, but probably odd to people expecting today's boxing style, and it looks a lil like bak mei meets muay thai (elbows).

there were multiple jabs from that old on-guard position, some of them being "upside down" jabs, others using a ton of "corkscrew" type action (i imagine to facilitate sliding over and through a parry).

[Golden Arms]

Are you guys seriously telling me nobody in the long history of martial arts though of using the Biu Sau/Finger Spear technique to the eyes as a jab? If you have trained hands, its not risky, especially without a large amount of power behind it, doesnt need to be very comitted and works great for setting up following techniques whether it lands or not. Look at the snake in Hung for example, or even some leopard technique and tell me that nobody was smart enough to figure you could aim them at the eyes and then work off that setup.

[unkokusai]

As all humans are equal in this biological sense, there can be no primitive. For to suggest that one is primitive suggests that another is modern and this usually implies a grading scale...this is inherently racist and old fashioned.

"Racist"? Um...against what race?

[PangQuan]

Are you guys seriously telling me nobody in the long history of martial arts though of using the Biu Sau/Finger Spear technique to the eyes as a jab? If you have trained hands, its not risky, especially without a large amount of power behind it, doesnt need to be very comitted and works great for setting up following techniques whether it lands or not. Look at the snake in Hung for example, or even some leopard technique and tell me that nobody was smart enough to figure you could aim them at the eyes and then work off that setup.

word

it may not have been highly used or taught, but i think great masters of the past my have had enough creativity, common sense, and time, to have at least one time at some point used a punch that would highly resemble a jab.

but of course people like to go based of of RECORDS, and we all know that records dont mean sh!t other than that was the first time it was RECORDED.

the world was round long before it was recorded so...

[Golden Arms]

Lung..who exactly told you what techniques are supposed to be used for? One of the basics of fighting is that you use whatever tools you have for whatever works for you, and the 4 finger biu fits into an eye socket just fine among other targets. That whole thinking of "this is used for this" is a big thorn in the side of martial artist in my opinion. If you just train the hands, do a lot of heavy bag work, partner drills, etc, you will find what works for you. That is the only rule I would think..what works well.

[lunghushan]

Lung..who exactly told you what techniques are supposed to be used for? One of the basics of fighting is that you use whatever tools you have for whatever works for you, and the 4 finger biu fits into an eye socket just fine among other targets. That whole thinking of "this is used for this" is a big thorn in the side of martial artist in my opinion. If you just train the hands, do a lot of heavy bag work, partner drills, etc, you will find what works for you. That is the only rule I would think..what works well.

Okay, whatever. The reason I took down the post was because it was obvious you guys would argue. And the only way I can respond is by giving out another technique which shouldn't be posted here.

[Vajramusti]

using a lead hand for a straight motion of some kind is old and ageless- but the foundation of the contemporary western boxer's jab can be seen in the work of gentleman Jim Corbett who lifted John L Sullivan's title....around 1892-no film of that exists that I know of... but ther is brief clip of Corbett and Fitzimmons and their jabs.

joy chaudhuri