Importance of gradings/sashes

[SilverNeedle]

I think sashes are important, we should accept that we are not chinese. We are occidentals, we have a different culture. So we use this sistem to have some kind of 'organization' in our training. I also see it like a reward to training (which should be hard), dedication, effort, etc.

but I know some shools suck.

[The Xia]

I think sashes are important, we should accept that we are not chinese. We are occidentals, we have a different culture. So we use this sistem to have some kind of 'organization' in our training. I also see it like a reward to training (which should be hard), dedication, effort, etc.

but I know some shools suck.

I disagree with you here. It doesn't have anything to do with Eastern vs. Western. After all, the Japanese came up with the colored belt rankings. I feel that belt systems are easily corruptible. The only place I see purpose in them are when a Sifu has hordes of students and cannot possibly remember where they are at. Therefore, he uses them as an indicator. Other then the circumstance of a very large class, they are totally unnecessary and act as a hindrance. Some people may like belts because it seems like a tangible reward for effort. This is a distorted view. It is the skill, not the belt that is the reward. It is counterproductive for the goal to be a belt. The goal of training should be improving your Gong Fu.

[SevenStar]

I disagree with you here. It doesn't have anything to do with Eastern vs. Western. After all, the Japanese came up with the colored belt rankings. I feel that belt systems are easily corruptible. The only place I see purpose in them are when a Sifu has hordes of students and cannot possibly remember where they are at. Therefore, he uses them as an indicator. Other then the circumstance of a very large class, they are totally unnecessary and act as a hindrance. Some people may like belts because it seems like a tangible reward for effort. This is a distorted view. It is the skill, not the belt that is the reward. It is counterproductive for the goal to be a belt. The goal of training should be improving your Gong Fu.

ANYTHING is easily corruptible. That is not due to the rank system, it's the morality of the teacher. I know students in non-sash systems that suck. badly. In some cases, their teacher is chinese. Now, attend a bjj school and try to find a black belt that sucks. you'd be hard pressed. It has zero to do with the ranking structure.

the goal really doesn't matter, when you think about it. If my students' goal is a belt, that's fine. My job is to make sure they are at the appropriate skill level before I give them the belt.

[Samurai Jack]

I'd like to relate what a good friend of mine who has taught and practiced Wu Mei for over thirty years has told me concerning the wide Southern style belts you often see in old photos. His system still uses them. He told me that it is used to provide pressure around the Dan tien so that the student learns to link thier hips with thier shoulders so that they can more easily learn to issue power from thier Dan tien. He also says it protects the lower back and belly from herniation, much as a weight belt might.

We use our obi in aikido and iaido for exactly the former reason, but not the latter. Basically it encourages us to learn to use our centers more effecivly. It helps to inflate our abdomens somewhat by pushing down on our diaphram. Using this pressure, our hips connect to the rest of our body more firmly. It helps us to move properly for our systems. Eventually you can practice doing it without the obi by loosening it somewhat.

I'll note that in my Hsing-i training, we also do the same thing, but without a belt. The student first becomes really aware of this inner pressure when learning Pao Chuan during the belly hitting portion of the movement. When you do that you inflate your abdomen at the same time that you contract the muscles of the abdominal wall. Again, it is a major step in learning to make internal connections. Normally people will contract thier abdomens without inflating, and this produces an incorrect pressure.

The same thing is accomplished during chi kung meditation through reversed breathing.

On the other hand, there are many arts that do not emphasize this technique, or which find other ways to accomplish it just as Hsing-i has. I think it's reasonable to assume that amoung the hundreds of different styles of kungfu, that not all of them will make use of a thick belt, nor would they all use the belt for the same reasons.

Hope this helps.

[The Xia]

I agree that it is the teacher's skill and ethics that determine the quality of students but belt systems create an illusion that students must overcome, even in good schools. It is important for a good teacher that uses belts to stress to the students what is really important.

[The Xia]

Before ten more people jump on this thread and start arguing with me I'll just refer you (or anyone else) to the above authors as a good start. I could never go into the kind of detail here that their works go into.

I understand that something with such a long and rich history cannot be explained with a paragraph. I am not quite clear on your point though. Although my post is not a dissertation on TCMA, I tossed some facts out. Do you contend with anything I have said?

[Helena Handbask]

I can express an opinion on here if I want. As for the hernia thing, if you're getting hernias you must be weak or have bad training.

I never mentioned hernias. Your attention to detail is staggering *lol* as probably are your stances *LOL*

[The Xia]

No use replying to lunghushan now. He hasn't posted here in a little while. His apparent goodbye is on the Min Loi Jam thread.

[Ray Pina]

On one hand, belts mean nothing, it's what you have that matters.

On another hand, I have tapped plenty of 4-striped white belts at Renzos even though my white belt has no stripes. I'm getting by on experience and fight spirit. They have more technical skills than me, so our ranks are right. I turn to them for guidance and assistance because they know more about what I want to learn than me.

Belts mean nothing to me.... belts mean a lot to me. I never let mine, be it white (Gracie) or black (isshin-ryu), hit the floor.

[Helena Handbask]

No use replying to lunghushan now. He hasn't posted here in a little while. His apparent goodbye is on the Min Loi Jam thread.

oh poo!

[SevenStar]

I agree that it is the teacher's skill and ethics that determine the quality of students but belt systems create an illusion that students must overcome, even in good schools. It is important for a good teacher that uses belts to stress to the students what is really important.

To be honest, I don't think you need to emphasize anything at all if you are in a school that has a good progressive system and emphasizes sparring. In bjj, take ANY white belt and put him against a purple belt - the difference is obvious. It reinforces itself. If you are in a school that focuses on things like forms and point sparring, then it's not so obvious, as you can't really draw a skill line fighting wise. And THAT is the main problem with belt ranking.

[SevenStar]

I can't agree more with this. When I left my first KF school (hung gar) that used a sash system, I realized how incredibly scewed and flawed my thinking was. It just does not encourage the proper mind set (especially in CMA). Its so unimportant. Students only pay attention to what they need to get their next rank, which is the natural reaction.

And THAT is the next big problem. schools have set forms and techniques to know and then they are permitted to test. That in itself takes away from the skill required. You are allowed to test because you know the material and can perform it well. IMO, that sucks.

in bjj (would likely be the same for muay thai, if we had ranks), you have to be able to beat those better than you. For example, a white belt will not even be considered for his blue until he can beat the blue belts above them some of the time and hang with them all of the time, regardless of which techniques he knows and performs well. This keeps things in check, skill wise - you know the student is at the level of the next rank, because he can at least hang with them and almost beat them.

When ranking is done this way, it doesn't matter what the student focuses on. It actually gives them more freedom to think about what they want. For example, I HATE ippon seionage. On the other hand, I LOVE harai goshi. (yeah, they are judo techniques, but there are no bjj techniques I can think of that I hate, so bear with me)

if my school has a focus on knowing the techniques in a curriculum, I have to regularly train seionage even though I will never use it in a fight or competition. If my school focuses on fighting skill development, than I can use whatever is enabling me to win. consequently, I know seionage as it's been taught, but nobody is forcing me to train it, as they are promoting my fighting development.