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Thread: Importance of gradings/sashes

  1. #46
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    Dude, I talked to the guy TODAY. He's from Beijing. He even gave me the Chinese letters written down, which I would transfer to computer except

    ....there's no point in dealing with you anymore.

    And yet....here you are......

    The Chinese "letters" are written down on every single one of the links that I gave you.

    肚兜


    肚 = tummy

    兜 = a pocket, pouch or similarly shaped object.

    He told you what it was called and I have provided pictures. Just not very similar to the Japanese thing at all. China just doesn't seem to have that kind of traditional clothing. You have clearly either misunderstood him or he misunderstood you. Don't keep flaunting your ignorance on the subject like you always do by trying to argue this point. There is no connection between the hong dou and "yao dai", or traditional Chinese belt. Completely different items worn for completely different reasons. You're arguing from "this dude told me..." and I am arguing from "Oh yeah, I know what that is from personal experience. No. Not what you're thinking of." I even provided pictures of both the traditional kind worn by women, the kind worn by babies and the new fasion version that "everyone's wearing these days".

    NONE of them serve as a belt of to keep anything warm or are worn for health reasons. The belt, as worn by most southern stylists, has been a common article of traditional Chinese clothing for just as long as the du dou. There's no evidence whatsoever that one came from the other.

    You're just speaking out yer rear end and only arguing because it's embarrasing to get called on it.

  2. #47
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    as a device for ranking, they are relevant only relative to the school you are part of.

    for support, they afford some support to the lower back if they are the proper size and width and tie.

    other than that, not much more to say about them.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #48
    It's interesting to note that many Hung Gar stylists use actual weightlifting belts in their training.

  4. #49

    On the use of belts...

    It isn't necessary if the class is small. I can see a Sifu using colored sashes, or some other kind of marker, in a large class where students come and go. Since the Sifu would have too many faces to remember he can use belts to indicate what that person is working on. When the Sifu sees that the person should move on he slaps another sash on him (no belt testing). I can see this as a viable solution for dealing with the difficulty of having a large class. Even in this system, it is important for the students to realize that it’s their Gong Fu, not sash color that counts. However, if you are teaching a small group, sash systems aren't necessary.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    yeah my si gung needs them

    we have over 300 students at one time so. it might take a bit.
    we have 5 senior intructer. 4 sifus and 1 si mo. we getting biggered fast. i know im not using real words
    "you might be in a fake cma school if your master claims to teach a style secretly passed down to him & nobody else called the Five Deadly Venoms"-forgot who

    "With kungfu, if it is good method you will build the body and the mind. when these are strong, the spirit flourishes. That's the core of kungfu and again it circles back to 'you'."- david jamieson

    P.S. i could be completely wrong

  6. #51
    "I have come to realise that the grading system and sashes are really quite irrelevant. Is it just a western thing that we like to be rewarded and to show other people where we stand/a hierarchy in schools?"

    It was my understanding that the belt system was developed by Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo. Does anyone know if he did this for the sake of teaching Americans or did he develop it in Japan before introducing Judo to the US.

    I'm sure you'll correct me if my facts are wrong on any of this.

    Another thing, if the belt system was created to cater to the American ego, as some of you imply, what do they do in Karate schools in Japan? I'm not 100% sure but I would guess that a Kyokshin school in Japan would have the same ranking system as that in America, since the schools are governed by the same organization. It would seem....and this is just me.....that they have a sense of achievement as well. Do Colleges in other countries offer degrees or do students just pay, learn, and leave without getting a diploma?

    I don't think that a blanket statement like "american's like to be rewarded" makes sense in light of this. It's kind of like the common belief that all Americans are out of shape......I happen to be in great shape. I think that it's up to the individual's mindset how much emphasis they place on rank. You can't control that. Some people are superficial and some are not. But, the rank system is a necessary evil.

  7. #52
    Yes, Jigoro Kano did invent the belt system. After he did this, it was adopted by other Japanese styles. Karate first saw belts, and dogi, when Funakoshi taught in Japan. I sincerely doubt that the colored belt system was invented to feed egos. To be honest, I am not quite sure of why it was invented. I cannot remember where, but I heard that Kano used belts in order to properly match competitors with those of their own skill. If you think about it, belt rankings would also be welcomed by 20th century Japanese militarism.

  8. #53
    "I cannot remember where, but I heard that Kano used belts in order to properly match competitors with those of their own skill."

    My guess is something along those lines as well. I don't think that belt rank in the states really lost meaning until the McDojos started to flourish. Before that, schools were not as widespread and the ones that were around were hard core. The thing that kind of irks me is that people are so quick to point fingers at the west as being the great corruptor of everything. As if all MA teachers in China's past were "Mr. Miyagi." They don't know that they are proudly showing their ignorance. There may not have been belt rank but China certainly had it's share of unscrupulous MA teachers.

  9. #54

    What you mean by that Anthony?

    There was some bullshido around. A perfect example of that is "Spirit Boxing". But historically speaking, Kung Fu was used by people who actually fought in life and death confrontations. Also, the majority of those that used Kung Fu weren't Imperial military like many would assume. It was quite the opposite actually. Societies with the doctrine of overthrowing the Emperor were filled with Kung Fu practitioners. A mercenary was a common profession for a Kung Fu man. Many Chinese martial artists also wandered around as street performers. It is true that Kung Fu was present in temples. Many martial monks were killers though. Kung Fu was not something that had full social approval. It was a pursuit largely relegated to people not looked upon in a favorable light by the Imperial court.
    Last edited by The Xia; 10-01-2006 at 06:36 PM.

  10. #55
    That's a big can o' worms. To sum up TCMA history in a nutshell is impossible. I could tell you that Stanley E. Henning, Charles Holcombe, Dr. William C.C. Hu and Fred Bleicher are good authors if you can find any of their articles on the net. Back when I had time I kept an eye out for the most seemingly well researched sources I could find on anything pertaining to TCMA history.

    But to address the point of con artists in TCMA's past, off the top of my head....."Societies with the doctrine of overthrowing the Emperor were filled with Kung Fu practitioners."

    Alot of these societies preyed upon the illiterate masses. Although they were largely illiterate, they knew folk legends and heroes of novels that were popular at the time (fictional characters). Some instructors actually claimed to be these fictitional characters in order to entice students. Some claimed to have learned from them. Instructors would put on elaborate demos in which they and their students would fake feats of strength and skill (pretending to be impervious to swords, guns, etc).....again, to lure students. These types of cons got students killed. Now, granted, I'm talking about a specific time and place. TCMA history is long and China's a big place.

    "Many martial monks were killers though."

    Althought it's not the point, there were martial monks in Japan and throughout Europe as well. Don't you think that monks killed people during the crusades.

    Other point's to consider regarding TCMA history are:

    TCMA and theater go back to the time before Christ. Fact and fiction were constantly interchanged.

    How Chinese martial artists fought is poorly documented and it is believed that they fought like regular soldiers.


    Every time I re-read and old book or article of mine, I learn something new. I don't want to get too much off the point which was that too many people seem to have a comic-book notion of TCMA's past which just isn't factual. Before ten more people jump on this thread and start arguing with me I'll just refer you (or anyone else) to the above authors as a good start. I could never go into the kind of detail here that their works go into.
    Last edited by Anthony; 10-01-2006 at 08:17 AM.

  11. #56
    I agree that the history of TCMA is long and complex but I was just throwing out some factoids. As for "Spirit Boxing", I cannot find much about it on the internet. This article is a good introduction if you are interested. http://kungfucinema.com/articles/20051220_01.htm

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    You can see Gong Li looking very sexy in one in "Joudou". ]


    Of course Gong Li would look very sexy wearing a burlap sack!

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post

    It's good you retracted the statement (even though you restated it above) because you clearly either misunderstood the old Chinese dude, he misunderstood you or you just don't remember your conversation clearly enough.


    Don't forget option 'D,' which is that he never had a conversation with anyone and is cooking it up as he goes.

  14. #59
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    West Virginia
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    Sash/Belt gradings should be used as a learning step if they are used. Each sash should represent what the person has learned and what the next step of learning will be. The tests should also be difficult mentally and physically and the person should certainly have a sense of pride when finished.

  15. #60
    I think most school's grading/testing structure is based on the psychology of keeping the beginner interested enough to keep coming back. I know in my school at least 50% of the people who sign up don't make it through the first 3 months.....and this is even with the easy advancement possible.

    I think the first couple of advancements/belts should be fairly easy to obtain. This will give the new student some encouragement and hopefully inspire him/her to go further. Afterwards the test and grading should be a lot tougher.

    I'm of the opinion that in a normal program, if you work hard and show up for class, you should be able to achieve a high level (Black belt or equalvalent) in about three years. I think this is a good time frame. Anything shorter is not enough time and anything longer may cause the student to lose interest. I worked with a woman who was into Karate. She was telling me the average time to get to black belt level in her school was 10 years. I don't imagine that many people stay long enough to reach that level at her school!
    Last edited by BoulderDawg; 10-02-2006 at 10:22 AM.

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