Internal training of strength

[travelsbyknight]

Here's the topic boyles and ghouls:

'Regular' weight lifting builds defined muscles and measureable strength. For example I used to be able to bench around 200 pounds. I know this strength doesn't translate into anything to do with martial arts but it's measureable.(measurable?) Methods like Hung Gar also train strength and power in such ways with more of a focus on dynamic tension.

AFter being introduced to the internal arts I've stopped doing most of the above. One of the chi gung sets I do daily(sometimes weekly) is called the '8 brocade plus'. The person and book I learned this from touted that with deliberate movements and intense concentration on coordinating breath and movement in a relaxed way relaxation I'd be able to gain a different kind of strength than the above with weights and what not. This type of strength was described as strenth derived from the tendons instead of the muscle belly of the major muscle groups. I'm not sure if this chi gung set is having any effects on me besides to help rehabilitate old injuries. Can anyone list any ways that this 'internal' strength can be seen, felt, measured or even applied? Thanks in advance for replying.

[fiercest tiger]

I think weights is also internal strength regardless its strength right, you breath and you focus with intent. Heavy becomes lighter as you get stronger internally and externally.

My internal art uses a heavy to light weighted balls to train muscles and tendons as well chi!

hope this helps!

Garry

[wiz cool c]

The best example I can give through my own experence is this one. I am not a big guy at all. I'm 5 "9 160 pounds. When I was really into Chen style moving push hands I trained with one teacher who really had internal strength. Greg Pinay I think I spelled his name wrong. He is a senior student of Master Ren. This guy is the same hight and about 20 pound lighter then me. Now I am very strong for my size and have moved guys 220 out of the circle many times. I must have pushed with Greg about 30 times studying with him. I never moved him out of the circle once. He is the only guy I have ever seen do this style of pushing without grunting and using all their energy to muscle someone out of the circle. If you looked at him you would never know how powerful this guy is.

[fiercest tiger]

I believe you need both type of training, physcial strength and internal energy type chi kung/breath.

[travelsbyknight]

I believe weight training is more detrimental than beneficial. The human body is supposed to move as a whole. One of the goals of martial arts is to teach you how to use your body as a single unit when you need. Weight training excercises one muscle or one muscle group at a time creating inbalances even if done "properly." I put that word in quotes because there are so many theories about how to lift weights for maximum benefit. Weights should only be used to rehabilitate injuries.

Also, singling out muscles/joints causes injuries and leads to long term conditions like tendonitous. Overuse of single body parts causes injuries. The 8 Brocade Plus utilizes the whole body in all movements.

What I wanted to know was if this type of "internal" strength could be tested? How would I know if the chi gung is affecting me?

[Plymouth Rocks]

Sure, stand in santi (or any such stance). Relax but stretch your soft tissue outward (pengjin-like). Allow someone to press their bodyweight into your palm. While relaxed, support the weight easily. Get ahold of Mike Sigman's "How to do Internal Strength" vids. They show some neat stuff.
BTW I assume you mean my pal, Tom Bisio.

[travelsbyknight]

I don't like to mention names of people but I'd have to say your guess is on target.



I'll try to check those vids out. Thanks for the info.

[Ford Prefect]

Lots of bad information here:

1) Weight movements train your body to act as a whole. Look at lifts like the snatch or clean and jerk. Also lifts like the squat and deadlift. All require a huge amount of coordination and full body strength. The former requires large amounts of explosiveness and flexability as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVB_rQFSsEg (olympic workout)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-hShqLWGjg (clean and jerk 469 lbs @ 180lbs bw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFZl86Qg8QY (old oly video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueUlvxLT9Cs (snatch)



2) Tendons don't make you stronger. Connective tissue does just that: connects things. Whether it be connecting muscle to bone or bone to bone, the tissue itself has no contractile capacity at all and is not responsible for movement. Only your muscles move your body. Nothing else. To be strong, you don't need to be big. Look at the limitted weight divisions in olympic weightlifting and powerlifting. There are some small people putting up HUGE amounts of weight.

3) IMO, internal power is derived from proper coordination between breath, movement, and structure. Stronger muscles will only help here as they will be able to give your body more support and move it quicker, which equals a more powerful strike.

Just because a smaller guy beat you means nothing. It just means that he had better technique. In BJJ, I was tossed around like a rag doll by a 16 year old kid who I outweighed me by 20 lbs. Similar experiences in wrestling, judo, and boxing as well. I've tapped guys and hold my own with guys who outweigh me by as much 80 lbs! I doubt he was using some mystical "internal strength" on me. To the heavier guys I dominated, I surely wasn't using it on them. I was merely using my knowledge, proper mechanics, and leverage.

[imperialtaichi]

Find yourself a 5m long heavy waxwood spear and practice the form as relaxed as you can until you don't feel the weight on it!

Cheers,
John

[YiLiQuan1]

Lots of bad information here:

Unfortunately, though, that's part and parcel of the whole "internal training can make you strong without your having to actually exercise" schtick. So many sinophilic soft-heads think they can meditate their way to super-strength, and maintain their myths in the face of direct evidence to the contrary.

Without some kind of weight resistance, be it body weight or good ol' iron, strength/power cannot be developed. Not my rule, blame God.

[fiercest tiger]

I agree with YiLiquan and ford!

John

Can you explain the difference in spear to body weight training or weighted ball workouts if you could cause i think they all can give you a full body workout even if you use Yi , chi etc as part of the training as well relaxed movements.

Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

2) Tendons don't make you stronger. Connective tissue does just that: connects things. Whether it be connecting muscle to bone or bone to bone, the tissue itself has no contractile capacity at all and is not responsible for movement. Only your muscles move your body. Nothing else.

I recommend some open-minded research.. Connective tissue is an equal partner in strength and movement, superior when understood and utilized properly.. connective tissue not only contracts, it expands, too.. something muscle cells can't do.. connective tissue through its tendrils and fibrils is what determines cell shape and movement.. but, don't take my word for it, i will repost some reference material:

http://www.intelligentbody.org.uk/PaulLeeReview.php

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._n9153887/pg_2

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...04/ai_n8942183

http://theamt.com/modules.php?name=N...=print&sid=143

http://www.hellerwork.com/archives/000923.html

http://www.backfixbodywork.com/Athle...ement_Pt_2.htm

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=25

Research into Connective tissue's contribution to physical performance and overall health is as important as any other isolated system.. but, before posting assertions of what it is or isn't, Google it.. the more information relative to this topic can be googled as: "Connective Tissue Tensegrity".. general Connective Tissue info can be searched as just "Connective Tissue", but it yields a lot of deep medical stuff..

Usually, posts like this are from people that have invested a lot into weight training.. and, if that's how one chooses to limit their experience, so be it.. i respect and even admire those that can dedicate so much of their discipline to sculpt a powerful "appearance", but.. there's so much more than appearance.. I also admit that there a balance between strength training and Connective Tissue maintenance.. it is fine balance.. but, ultimately, science and experience reveals the connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist.. This IS a relatively new area of research, in the past the Connective Tissue System was generally overlooked for exactly the same concepts as Ford states, "Connective tissue does just that: connects things".. currently, it is clear that it does so much more.. check out the links, do your own searches.. the data is out there for everyone's benefit..

Be well..

[explosiveturtle]

Lots of internal and external style's has cross over theory on how to blow more power. The very very old Baji Quan and Long Fist training has qi gong pratice. Xin yi has weight lifting.

Horse stand is one of the root of all power training. And we all know all martial art stress about the improtents of horse stand.

I'm sure now days: very few people can train internal strength like 200 years ago. Too few know how... and it's a load dreadful work.
so muscle plays a big part in power, however it's really what type of muscle you want to develop. Lean, bulk, explosive, or even just for show

[Ford Prefect]

Greetings..

I recommend some open-minded research.. Connective tissue is an equal partner in strength and movement, superior when understood and utilized properly.. ...

I do open minded research. I go out without any fixed opinions, and I let the evidence point to the correct answer. The correct answer is:

Connective Tissue has NO contractile capability. Whether you are doing a tai chi form or a barbell bench press, it is your muscles that are doing the movement. Your connective tissue is along for the ride.

I am familiar with tensegrity, Bob, as is anybody who has ever taken an intro to human physiology class. It is a very real thing. It does not however move the skeleton or give strength. If you want to talk about a limb snapping back into place from extreme ranges of motion due to stored elestic energy in connective tissue, that is one thing. The problem is that this energy only comes into play in extreme ranges of motion and odd positions. It is also weaker than the muscles acting upon it else the stored energy of connective tissue would hyperextend and grind your limbs or rip muscles in half.

If you want to get extremely technical, connective tissue does have contractile capability the same way a stretched out rubber band has contractile capability. That however has no real application in athletic movements, or movements that require speed and power. It is a semantic argument that holds no water in all current research.

That is not to say that connective tissue strength is not important. It is equally important as muscular strength since strong muscles and weak tendons/ligaments are a recipe for disaster just as the inverse is true. That is why both muscles and ligaments develop strength in concert with each other. It is also why movements that build large amounts of strength such as weight lifting, sprinting, and ballistic shock exercises like plyometrics, likewise build very strong connective tissue. Seeing as how connective tissue's stored energy is weaker than that of a muscle and that it is very hard to build connective strength isolated from muscular strength workouts, one would ascertain that intense resistance training is the best way to go for both. If all you want is strong connective tissue, then you have the supplementary benefit of strong muscles as well.

To take a page from your book: I find people who post things like you are people who have invested a lot of time into esoteric practices to the exclusion of traditional strength training. They hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength, and that is all they are left with: hope. If that is how the chose to spend their time, so be it. To each their own. That does not mean that they should dish out disinformation in an attempt to validate their practice. (BTW, I practice Tai Chi and am starting Ba Gua)

ultimately, science and experience reveals the connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist..

For all those interested, this is statement born from an over active imagination. Science has in no way conlcuded anything of the sort. Every post I have made is firmly grounded in the latest and most accepted scientific knowledge surrounding athletic conditioning; This includes martial artists.

Perhaps Bob's experience has revealed this to him, but as for scientists and the athletes/coaches who are supported by their research, not so much.

This IS a relatively new area of research, in the past the Connective Tissue System was generally overlooked for exactly the same concepts as Ford states,

Also, this is NOT a relatively new area of research. Some of the pseudo-scientific theories surrounding this old and time tested research are "relatively new". Don't take my word for it. Take the word of esteemed scientists the world over. This is a list of collective works that are used to train olympic champions and professional athletic standouts. This goes for track stars as well as boxers and wrestlers... (ie those competing in aspects of fighting at the highest possible level of competition)

Supertraining by Mel C Siff and Yuri Verkoshanky.

Quick Bio: Mel Siff is a PhD in physiology specialising in biomechanics, MSc (Applied Mathematics) awarded summa cum laude in brain research, BSc Honours in Applied Mathematics and a BSc (Physics, Applied Math). His serious involvement with the Internet began when he devised the unique concept of electronic education in sports science based on methods of propositional analysis pioneered by the ancient Grecian philosophers. This enterprise created the well-known weekly P&P's (Puzzles & Paradoxes) and F&F's (Facts & Fallacies) which he wrote for various user groups, including Sportscience, Physio, PTHER, FIT-L, Sport Psycho and Weights.

Yuri Verkhoshanksy is largely considered one of the best sports scientists EVER. He was largely responsible for the training methods that produced Soviet olympic champions during the zenith of their glory. Yuri is the one who did all the research and developed what is now known as "plyometrics" in the western world.

Beware. This book is not written with the layman in mind. It is a book aimed at fellow scientists in the field covering every aspect of physiology as it relates to biomechanics in sports performance.

Anyway, this is getting long. I dodn't want to break it up into 2 posts. If anybody wishes to know more reading material or references for these ideas, I will post them.

[RonH]

There are multiple parts of internal strnegthening. There is proper body mechanics with muscle/connective tissue tension and energy work. I've never heard of 8 brocade plus. I've heard of 8 strands brocade. I don't know if it's just a name difference or if there are movement differences.

There are 2 ways to activate the energy points throughout the body: movement of joints and tension in body tissues. I'm not sure of the exact relationship between tension in bone tissues and energy points, but I would say that it is a factor. I'm just not sure how much a factor it is (tension placed on it by the tension of soft tissue).

Different energy exercises place different emphasis on how much soft tissue tension is placed on the body and which joints are moved to stimulate energy point usage. And working out also helps stimulate energy points, too. Joints are moved, soft tissue has varying degrees of tension placed upon them, however, I would stress stamina of muscles over increasing strength for MA, competition or survival training.

Now, while physical conditioning has a lot of benefits (even when considering the more material aftereffects of weight training), the energy, internal strengthening is really leaps and bounds ahead of it. Yes, there is proper body alignment that's needed, but without the energy work, proper body alignment will only get you so far. It's not just the tendons in the muscle bellies.

You want something that will help quantify internal strength training. Rehabilitation of old injuries is a prime example. Why? Because in developing your energy points, it enhances how your body works, like rebuilding a car engine into something faster, stronger and more powerful. It enhances your ability to heal, returning your old injuries into a previous form where it was healthier.

But, it isn't just your ability to heal that gets enhanced, it's everything. Every part of you. Strength, speed, stamina, your ability to think. How much it is enhanced is determined by how much effort you put into it. You are the best quantifier because of comparing how you are now with how you were before.

If you want something that's right in front of your eyes, time yourself to see how much more you can do. Use the same type of euipment and record the differences in what you can do now and compare it to what you did before. If it's something, like how well you hit, judge based on what happens to what you're hitting, whether it's a bag or something else..