Internal training of strength

[Ford Prefect]

One more thing. Although Mel Siff has recently passed away, his Yahoo training group that he had moderated still remains:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/


You can joing this group of which many members are highly respected scientific researchers and athletic trainers from the world over. You can let them know about what science has proven as far as science proving that "connective tissue as a higher more useful tool in the goals of a dedicated martial artist". I'm sure they'd love to know just what "science" has done that.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To take a page from your book: I find people who post things like you are people who have invested a lot of time into esoteric practices to the exclusion of traditional strength training. They hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength, and that is all they are left with: hope. If that is how the chose to spend their time, so be it. To each their own. That does not mean that they should dish out disinformation in an attempt to validate their practice. (BTW, I practice Tai Chi and am starting Ba Gua)

Well, i have done, and still do, quite a bit of work with weights and resistance.. it has only been in the last year that i have been able to make the break-through in awareness and do the research necessary that contradicts most of the "disinformation" about the Connective Tissue System (CTS).. but, i don't intend to quibble about it, the data speaks for itself.. i'v dropped 15 pounds of counter-productive muscle, and gained much more strength , particularly where it matters most.. and, indeed, i have invested a lot of time in "esoteric" practices.. but, not to the detriment of sound physical exercise and dedicated Taiji practice..

Now, as cleverly worded as the post is, i assume that Ford is an intelligent being.. but, the evidence also suggests a lack of pragmatism:

They hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength, and that is all they are left with: hope.

Until someone (in this case i refer to Ford) is open-minded enough to test, in a practical manner, the assertions of emerging research and equally reputable researchers.. it is easy to contradict things you haven't given a pragmatic chance.. i am, of course, supposing that you haven't actually gone through the disciplines that might reveal much of the info i am posting.. i understand, this limitation, i am occasionally prejudiced to my own detriment, too..

Also, this is NOT a relatively new area of research. Some of the pseudo-scientific theories surrounding this old and time tested research are "relatively new". Don't take my word for it. Take the word of esteemed scientists the world over. This is a list of collective works that are used to train olympic champions and professional athletic standouts. This goes for track stars as well as boxers and wrestlers... (ie those competing in aspects of fighting at the highest possible level of competition)

Now, i can cite many reputable scientists and many well-funded research grants by cutting-edge institutions.. and someone will call it "psuedo-science".. similarly, someone can cite contrary perspectives and i could express my own rebuttals.. i.e.: "old-school, behind the times, self-validating, etc.. but, those interactions are largely counter-productive.. i've successfully played in both camps, and my cumulative experience persuades me that the CTS is a fundamental component of the "real" Taiji experience.. so, as is my nature, i try to pass this information along, without attaching any other value than an intention to get people to consider alternative power sources..

Now, more to the point: I do not "hope beyond hope that such practices will somehow lead them to the path of greater strength" as Ford surmises.. i evaluate evidence from many perspectives, test the evidence, and formulate sound opinions.. i'm 5'9" and 153 lbs., i spar, roll, and push with people on the far side of 200 lbs. with success that i have evaluated to be directly linked to the CTS and its disciplined use.. i train with weight and resistance, but.. not as a "muscle-building process", rather a toning and balancing process in an attempt to find the most beneficial relationship between the neuro-muscular system and the CTS.. any concept that the CTS is isolated to ligament and tendon systems is a fundamental mis-understanding of the CTS.. it permeates every cell down to the DNA level.. any doubt that the CTS is responsible in a real and tangible proportion of strength, movement, health, and a myriad of other functions is equally flawed.. the CTS is much more than "along for the ride", it is part and parcel "the ride".. but, this is, actually, old news, as well..

But, this is becoming laborious.. as always, there is the wisdom of the third party observer to consider.. i have posted links, suggested searches (current scientific research), and related my own and other anecdotal accounts.. rather than do the "my sources are better than your sources" duel, i will rely on the analytical abilities of the others.. my own experiences have settled this issue, for me.. and, i began this research as a skeptic, having much the same opinion as Ford, go figure..

Be well...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

One more thing.. we go at each other from differing perspectives.. respect given will be respect returned.. we will each stack our evidence to favor our preferences, and.. we will test each other's mettle and keyboard skills.. but, ultimately, we will live according to the our individual experiences.. not much more will be accomplished, really.. well, maybe we will generate more interest and investigation in the subject.. then, others can form "their own opinions"..

Be wel...

[spiralstair]

science n. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Hi Guys,
Through my own personal scientific experience of strength training over the past 30 years, I have found this:
Strength training through classic resistance exercises that involve whole body muscle and joint recruitment patterns are an indispensable tool to providing a lasting health framework. They also teach over time a very detailed method of self-correcting one’s kinaesthetic sense. If one doesn’t do the lift with correct posture and intent, one hurts.

Internal methods that rely on ‘relaxed musculature’, a feeling for ’chi’, ‘peng path’, CTS, and the like are an advanced method that do produce an unusual degree of health and strength in my experience. However, I have also noticed a common tendency among practitioners of these methods to ‘rush it’, and since unlike the classic ‘external’ strength building methods there is no built in self-correcting mechanism, often the ‘results’ are mostly in their minds, not in their bodies.

I have come to think that the ‘external’ methods of strength building should be used like the ‘income earning’ portion of your life, when you are young through middle age.
Make a lot of ‘money’, and invest it wisely(a proper strength building foundation).
If you do it well then you can ‘retire’ and live off your investments while really having a lot of fun investigating the ‘other’ path (internal strength).

Plus by then maybe you’ll be secure enough to let others go there own way, no matter what they think of yours.

Peace

[Ford Prefect]

Like I said in my last post, if you are confident in this information, then join the Supertraining group and start a discussion on it.

Most participating members (as opposed to those who just like to read the conversation or pose a simple question) are either trainers who train the upper echelon of athletic talent across the world in all sports or PhD'ed researchers who work for universities around the world pushing the cutting edge of physiology and biomechanics research. It has historically been used as a forum for high level researchers and trainers to collobarate, share data, and challenge "doctrine".

When you do so, you won't feel the need the need to talk down to a random internet poster as a random internet poster as all group entries must be signed with your real name and location. The contributors there are some of the most accomplished in their field, and have no qualms about dishing the dirt. Again, join the group. See what live cutting edge researchers tell you in discussion instead of reading a book or internet article.

BTW, I love statements of conversion. They crack me up more than any other fallacious argument.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

spiralstair: Nice analogies, and.. reading between the lines, your point is well taken.. Thanks

Ford Prefect:

BTW, I love statements of conversion. They crack me up more than any other fallacious argument.

LOL.. how's the lofty view? you certainly assume much, about those you know little of.. and, i can't wait for the "your type" response.. but, i will investigate the referenced group.. without condescending or inflamatory rhetoric.. my interest is in learning, not "being right".. or converting non-believers.. if i am mis-informed, i will find out by experience, not by being told by elitist people with vested interests in the "world-class" programs they profit from.. yet, i will listen openly AND test their theories (those i haven't tested heretofore)..

Be well...

[RonH]

I think what TCB is getting at is that even if that particular group is as you've said, he doesn't feel the need to say it to others just because he believes it, to do it to compete.

Edit: Okay, he beat me to it. And while he is interested in hearing what they have to say, I think I'm still right in the spirit of how he feels about the subject of "competing" on this matter.

[travelsbyknight]

And I don't mean that in a good way.

<<<Plymouth Rocks

Sure, stand in santi (or any such stance). Relax but stretch your soft tissue outward (pengjin-like). Allow someone to press their bodyweight into your palm. While relaxed, support the weight easily. >>>

Quick question, dude. I'm not sure what you mean by "stretch your soft tissue outward(pengjin-like). Can you describe that part in less internal martial arty terms? Thanks.

Ford Perfect and Taichi Bob,

I see an emerging pattern. You guys keep firing back info "proving" your points. Here's the jimmy of it all: If an organization grants me tons of money to conduct research showing weightlifting is great for us all...guess what I'm going to end up "proving"? The research tends to prove the point of the organization that grants the money. So...you guys should stop wasting time posting your links about Jon Ph'D who researched and proved NOTHING.

Ford: Weightlifting, in its current form, isn't traditional as you put it. It's a product of modern society. They didn't have Universal machines in ancient Greece! The only thing I've ever gotten from weightlifting, besides looking very hot for the ladies, is injuries. You're probably going to say that I wasn't doing it properly but that's the problem with this modern way of working out. There is not right and wrong way because there are new theories all the time on how to increase muscle, lose fat, build up explosive muscle, etc. I stopped working out so heavily and many of my pains vanished. I focus now on technique, structure, footwork/positioning and moving with my whole body. I hit a lot harder than I used to. I may not get as many looks from girls on the beach but the hitting harder part makes up for that.

My point is that the weightlifting thing is out of my system and now I'm trying something different. Doing "mystical slow chi gung" is a hell of a lot harder than lifting weights. It's easy to be tense. Relaxing is the hard part.

[fiercest tiger]

Shaolin monks lifted weights, stone balls, stone locks, barbells type stuff plus many heavy devices if you look in the 72 arts of shaolion you will find many.

Taiji use ball, bagua use balls, i think weights done in the right fashion is needed. Plyometrics, body weight, all useful this is what a athlete is be it kung fu or any other athlete.

Garry

[Ford Prefect]

TBK,

I've practiced chi kung for years. I've practiced zen meditation for years. I practice Tai Chi. I practice Yoga. I think I have a decent idea about slow chi kung and relaxation.

All your example of having pains eased by quitting training highlights is your lack of knowledge on general strength and conditioning seeing as you were not able to implment a routine that left you healthy, stronger, and pain free. I'll break it down into bullets for ease of seperating point-by-point:

A) Traditional does not mean "hundreds of years old".

B) Modern means of working out are used to rehab people from injuries. Only when done incorrectly or implemented in an incorrect training program will it lead to injury.

C) Actually there really aren't new theories into the physiology behind muscle gain, fat loss, etc. The mechanisms behind which are well-known. For instance the energetic theory of muscle hypertrophy is the model that has stood for quite some time. What does change is opinions on the optimal way to preduced your desired results.

Many results based off a program are directly coorelated with the trainee's body type (endomorph, ectomorph, mesomoprh, etc), fiber ratios, metabolism, muscle length, insulin sensitivity, recoperative abilities and other such factors specific to each trainee. If you are unable to ascertain such information and how a program should be designed around it, then a qualified coach should be able to do so. One size never fits all.

D) If you don't want to lift weights, that's great. Not everything is for anybody. I respect individual's right to chose what they like to do. What I don't respect is passing on misinformation, and depending on my work load, I'll take exception to that.

[Ford Prefect]

TCB,

Nobody on that list hawks their wares there. Many have no wares to hawk as they are research scientists. As I said, it was used for a way of researchers to discuss concepts without needing to meet for a roundtable debate or go the peer-review route.

You came on this thread quoting me and then personally attacking me. And yes, insinuation somebody is not "open minded" is an attack and an ad hominem fallacious argument to boot. You then make more fallacious arguments by appealing to a false authority by saying science has proven that connective tissue strength is more important than muscular strength for martial artists. Can you point to scientific studies done on such phenomena occuring in martial artists that have been published for review in a peer-reviewed medical journals as well as reviewing scientist's comments on the validity of said studies? No. Alrighty then. You go on with yet more fallacious arguments with your statements of conversion about how you thought X way, but after learning more, you are now doing Y.

You talk about lofty views, but you have been nothing but condescending. You make fallacious arguments left and right. You make assumptions about people you don't know left and right. It's sad.

[imperialtaichi]

Can you explain the difference in spear to body weight training or weighted ball workouts if you could cause i think they all can give you a full body workout even if you use Yi , chi etc as part of the training as well relaxed movements.

Hello Garry,

Try this at home: try throwing a tennis ball by:
1. the normal way, eyes far ahead, relaxed, and throw
2. keep your eyes on the ball, put as much strength into the ball as possible then throw it out, eyes never leaving your hands.
Without doubt, you'll be able to throw with method 1 much further than with method 2. And I don't really have to explain why because it is quite obvious.

The reason why I like the spear is because the metal tip and the red tassle helps me "look ahead" like that first ball throwing method. The spear can get pretty heavy and gives me an im-balance force which simulates an opponent more so than weighted balls and dumb bells. The flexible waxwood further add to difficulties in control and balance.

Resistance training with dumb bells etc sure builds up muscle bulk, but similar in quality to the second ball throwing method.

Cheers,
John

[spiralstair]

Imperial:
You mentioned on another thread about the process of "feeding the energy",
where the student 'feeds' into the peng structure of the teacher, creating a bigger 'Bounce'
in return.

Using weights it is possible to train this same whole body ability by,

1st: establishing a peng supported structure with arms extended to the elbow

2nd: lying an unweighted olympic bar across the arms and holding it with the peng

3rd: slightly rotating at the waist to develop a sense of the waist directing the movement

4th: contracting and expanding from the tantien while using the resistance of the bar to 'check' that you keep the 'peng posture'

one should do this in small amounts of time with a strict 'internal' sense of when the holding force goes from 'peng path' to traditional muscle path.
this is one of many cross training exercises that challenge the boundries between 'external' strength training and 'internal' strength training.

Peace

[Plymouth Rocks]

I don't weight train and I can hit you hard enough to make your fillings come out. Fajing, that's all. But I've got nothing against that training. One of my top students was a serious weight trainer/ black belt karate guy. Started with me because he wanted to understand how I could hit so hard while still being relaxed. Now he has incorporated internal training with weight training somehow. I do like body weight training although I don't really do that either.
travels: I could show you but it's difficult for me to describe. Frankly I don't like all the typing.
Buddy

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

Thanks, i dont do dumbells i roll the ball and do many different exercises with the ball that i havent seen yet in other internal arts. The throwing you speak of is also part of our striking using the 3 circle method one day ill meet up and we can compare.

I like all weapons as we have 18 weapons and 2 man i guess we learn all different shapes sizes , weights of spinning, poking, lifting, sinking etc.

Garry