Internal training of strength

[Fu-Pow]

Another interesting article:

http://vv.arts.ucla.edu/Talks/Barcelona/Arch_Life.htm

I will respond to your comments Scott when I have more time to do so thoroughly...gotta go eat dinner!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I suppose that my exhuberance in my learning of the Connective Tissue's important contribution to our art's fulfillment may be interpreted as me feeling that the connective tissue is superior to muscle in its contribution.. i stand corrected, it exists in balance and is complimentary.. however, ignorance of it or relegating to an unimportant position in our heirarchy of components will greatly diminish the experience we seek.. and, specifically, focused muscular development can easily compromise the balance of systems needed for a holistic experience.. i am a fan of good muscular development, much more in favor of toning and endurance over bulk and ROM inhibiting development..

Practical examples of activation of the CTS and its usefulness have been irrefutably demonstrated to me.. research confirms its importance in the internal arts and general health.. i have always utilized strength training, but perhaps a little differently than the phrase implies, resistance stretching, reptetitions, ROM resistance.. i really like the Total Gym products, they stretch you to the limits you choose and allow you to set the resistance as desired.. this system seems beneficial to the tendons and ligaments and, when i can activate the CTS, offers confirmation of its contribution toward my goal of improving my Taiji experience..

Time-honored tests of strength such as olympic or strong-man events are isolated from the process of living in a symbiotic world.. they are like photographs, carefully set-up to display a specific situation, but isolated none-the-less.. make no mistake, there are gifted and disciplined people with very developed muscle masses and great skills, these are formidable oponents, but.. i have been witness to, and even party to, their defeat by substantially smaller people that were relying on a more natural holistic set of physical dynamics.. it's those "mystical appearing" situations where someone slips into the "zone" and expresses a power not completely dependent on brute strength.. it is comparable to "listening" to energy, sensing its intention and making corrective adjustments before the opponent can manifest their intent.. crucial to this situation is relaxed Peng, where the CTS is actively sensing the opponent's internal communications through their CTS's frequencies.. this is a skill that demands much of the seeker, requiring many "investments in loss" as needed to hone the listening and sensing skills..

Once the listening and sensing skills have begun to develop, it is easier to establish a springy Peng at precisely the moment the opponent intends to apply force or intends to retreat.. the result is the opponent's unbalancing of themselves, a delicate and energy conserving technique.. the opponent, having caused their own up-rooting, will usually struggle to compensate and regain balance.. this is predictable and beneficial in-as-much-as the struggle usually provides ample opportunity effect a finishing technique through the opponent's resistance.. and, depending on the situation, the finish can be a nuanced but comprehensive up-rooting, a Chin Na application for immobilization and negotiation, or a decisive conflict conclusion.. all of this, i am learning, is greatly enhanced through a deep understanding of the relationship of the CTS with with the more mundane, or traditional, neuro-muscular capabilities.. balance being the operative relationship..

Be well...

[Ford Prefect]

Ford: Examine your first post in this thread, it demonstrates the same characteristics that you are lamenting of mine.. we are passionate regarding our perspectives, as it should be.. do not assume that i have "attacked" anyone, i have made points and counter-points.. if i were to attack someone it would be much more obvious..

Calling into question the state of somebody's mind is an attack. It's rather simple. "If you had an open mind, you'd believe X" is the epitome of an ad hominem attack.

we differ in our understanding and experience of physiology and Internal Martial Arts.. all we can do is evaluate each other's perspectives and compare to our own understandings..

Not really. You made false claims immediately off the bat. You claimed that science had proven your assertions to be true for martial artists. That is absolutely incorrect. In order for that to be correct, there would have to be scientific studies done on the phenomena of which you speak and performed on martial artists as compared to other athletes of other disciplines as well as untrained laypeople. No such studies exist.

For my case, I assume a martial artist is performing physical skills like any other athlete. There are numerous studies done that test increases in base althetic performance in easily measured feats like sprinting, jumping, and agility. These actual peer-reviewed studies is what I (and the collective athletic training world) base their training strategies off of.


You are equally condescending and attacking, let's call that one a draw.. you ask me a question,

I answered like for like. If you can't take it, then don't be the first to start dishing it out.



This whole premise is rather amusing to me. It reminds me of creationist vs evolution debate. One side has the bulk of the scientific community in that field standing behind it with the bulk of research evidence supporting it and the other side has uncorrelated scientific studies and unscientific logical leaps that have a grounding in science but leap far beyond it.

If you came on here saying that X has worked for you, I wouldn't have said a single thing. To each their own. If you want to believe something, then so be it. It is the fact that you quoted my post, attacked me, and then made the absolutely false claim about science proving your position true. Sorry. I take exception to such things.

[Ford Prefect]

Scott,

Ignore Fu Pow. He is a rather well-known and long-lived troll on this site. Sonnon as well as made his living in over the top marketing.

I agree 100% though. If it works for you, then use it. I also agree that all else being equal, the stronger, faster man wins. If you pose the question:

Say you had to fight somebody identical to you in almost every attribute; height, weight, reach, technical skill, etc.. everything. The only thing you differed in is that he is faster and stronger than you. Who has a better shot of winning?

The responses range from "well strength and quickness don't matter, so it'd still be even" to "strength is burden in this art, so I would" to the actual truth. Personally, I think reliance on outdated training methods and mystical concepts is what is holding TCMA back in terms of perfomance in combat.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ford:

Calling into question the state of somebody's mind is an attack. It's rather simple. "If you had an open mind, you'd believe X" is the epitome of an ad hominem attack.

No, suggesting that someone reread my posts with an open mind simply might prove useful.. your posts hold a particular point of view substantiated by your prejudiced references.. no different than mine, but.. i do consider your references and concede points worthy of the issues.. i do not suggest that, "If you had an open mind, you'd believe X", i suggest that there is evidence that supports my assertions, which, evidenced by your responces, you seem to have failed to comprehend or even read..

Not really. You made false claims immediately off the bat. You claimed that science had proven your assertions to be true for martial artists. That is absolutely incorrect. In order for that to be correct, there would have to be scientific studies done on the phenomena of which you speak and performed on martial artists as compared to other athletes of other disciplines as well as untrained laypeople. No such studies exist.

Again, you are making blanket assumptions, unsubstantiated and as if you were an authority on the subject.. By all means, demonstrate that "no such studies exist".. and try to do it without requesting that i prove they do.. it's your claim, now..

I answered like for like. If you can't take it, then don't be the first to start dishing it out.

That is a bit of a reach, i was not the "first" to initiate conflict.. you entered a dialogue with condescending assertions, blanket unsupported statements, and statements contradicting previously identified reliable sources.. basically, looking for conflict.. you got it and now you whine?

If you came on here saying that X has worked for you, I wouldn't have said a single thing. To each their own. If you want to believe something, then so be it. It is the fact that you quoted my post, attacked me, and then made the absolutely false claim about science proving your position true. Sorry. I take exception to such things.

If you had come in here to discuss the differences in our understandings rather than asserting "bad information" or "dis-information" perhaps we would have had a more rational discourse.. i didn't "attack" you, perceive it as you will.. your insecurities are not my issue.. Really, "absolutely false claim", could you please back that up?.. and, rather than "take exception", i find it more beneficial to dialogue and find out what is most beneficial to my own goals..

Although the following quote was not directed to me, i would like to offer a different perspective:

The responses range from "well strength and quickness don't matter, so it'd still be even" to "strength is burden in this art, so I would" to the actual truth. Personally, I think reliance on outdated training methods and mystical concepts is what is holding TCMA back in terms of perfomance in combat.

Strength and quickness are essential components of the issue in question, combat.. all things being equal in terms of training, experience and skill.. the stronger faster person has the advantage, no problem.. where we differ in our perspectives is that we define the sources and components of strength and speed differently.. and, of course, the "mystical" quality.. i would be interested in hearing what you consider "mystical".. i have no concrete concept of "mystical" in relation to Taiji, i sense that there are situations and conditions that have yet to be understood, but.. they are still natural events, waiting our ability to measure, quantify and comprehend.. in other words, the jury is still out on some issues, better to leave an open door than to miss an opportunity..

Be well...

[Fu-Pow]

Scott,

Ignore Fu Pow. He is a rather well-known and long-lived troll on this site.

Easier to call me a troll then address my points I guess.

Sonnon as well as made his living in over the top marketing.

Throughout history there have been great originators and synthesizers of knowledge. For people to call Sonnon a rip-off artist is kind of ridiculous. Knowledge never exists in a vacuum.

The responses range from "well strength and quickness don't matter, so it'd still be even" to "strength is burden in this art, so I would" to the actual truth. Personally, I think reliance on outdated training methods and mystical concepts is what is holding TCMA back in terms of perfomance in combat.

Its funny that you bring up the evolutionist vs. creationist debate because from my perspective it is you that is on the "creationist" side of things. Sticking to your dogmatic, isolationist view of how the human body works instead of seeing it as an integrated, dynamic whole.

The problem is that you want something "scientific" to grasp on to, but science usually only has the small picture. It can only "prove" things in very controlled isolation. This makes it difficult to say anything about the larger organism as a whole.

To start with biological organisms are immensely complex. We are built out of atoms and molecules but more than the sum of our parts. Add on to that we have a subjective interior (ie mind) and it becomes extremely difficult to arrive at any "scientific" statement about the overall performance of the human body.

In martial arts you have 2 or more complex organisms, subjective interiors competing against each other adding to the complexity.
So how can you really know that isolated weightlifting exercise is adding to martial capability, when there are so many factors to account for?

The underlying assumption here folks is that bigger and stronger=better. That's the fallacy that Sonnon undermines in his article and its the philosophy that Ford espouses on these forums....unfortunately to the detriment of real martial skill development.

[gabe]

Easier to call me a troll then address my points I guess.



Throughout history there have been great originators and synthesizers of knowledge. For people to call Sonnon a rip-off artist is kind of ridiculous. Knowledge never exists in a vacuum.



Its funny that you bring up the evolutionist vs. creationist debate because from my perspective it is you that is on the "creationist" side of things. Sticking to your dogmatic, isolationist view of how the human body works instead of seeing it as an integrated, dynamic whole.

The problem is that you want something "scientific" to grasp on to, but science usually only has the small picture. It can only "prove" things in very controlled isolation. This makes it difficult to say anything about the larger organism as a whole.

To start with biological organisms are immensely complex. We are built out of atoms and molecules but more than the sum of our parts. Add on to that we have a subjective interior (ie mind) and it becomes extremely difficult to arrive at any "scientific" statement about the overall performance of the human body.

In martial arts you have 2 or more complex organisms, subjective interiors competing against each other adding to the complexity.
So how can you really know that isolated weightlifting exercise is adding to martial capability, when there are so many factors to account for?

The underlying assumption here folks is that bigger and stronger=better. That's the fallacy that Sonnon undermines in his article and its the philosophy that Ford espouses on these forums....unfortunately to the detriment of real martial skill development.

I didn't see anyone adocating isolation exercises only, while neglecting the rest of the body. Nor did I see anyone state that practising the supplemental isolated weight training exercise while neglecting the targeted skill is the way to go. In fact, I see the contrary. And sorry to reiterate Scott's points, but no expert weight trainer or fitness expert would go that route.

Sonnon's article, however, argues the extreme opposite. He states that there is no carryover between these isolated training exercises and actual performance. And a bigger and stronger muscle does not contribute to power or, again, performance, but is in fact detrimental.

He used the golf swing as an example. Is swinging a bat any different? Not really IMO. But baseball players taking steroids in conjunction with heavy weight lifting started breaking records. How do you explain that? Tiki Barber, an undersized NFL running back, spent his first couple of season injury prone and fragile. His recent success is attributed to his training program, which bulked him up. How many professional athletes improve themselves through weightlifting? I can't see how you can argue that the isolationist exercises has nothing to do with it.

Most importantly, isolationist exercises that are done in conjunction with isolationist exercises targeting other areas of the body, become a whole body routine.

The other things I'd like to mention is, after reading some of this, I don't see how the CTS can be considered separate to the Neur0-musc. system. When it is stated that they are complimentary, that implies that they are separate. Functionally speaking, they are wholly integrated. Movement requires the muscular nervous system. Since you can't separate the two, I find it hard to understand how you can argue advantages of one over the other. For that same reason, it's impossible to study either in separation when it comes to complex movement.

Lastly, Sonnon discusses power in terms of relaxation and tension, going from one to the other. This is what I've been discussing in terms of power, but somehow, I always seem to be on a different wavelength than most of the posters here.

Let's try to keep this discussion civil if possible.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Gabe:

The other things I'd like to mention is, after reading some of this, I don't see how the CTS can be considered separate to the Neur0-musc. system. When it is stated that they are complimentary, that implies that they are separate. Functionally speaking, they are wholly integrated. Movement requires the muscular nervous system. Since you can't separate the two, I find it hard to understand how you can argue advantages of one over the other. For that same reason, it's impossible to study either in separation when it comes to complex movement.

You are mostly correct.. i think the issue is "imbalance", where someone over-develops the muscles to the detriment of the CTS.. the CTS is an intricate communication pathway, among other things.. muscles that are too bulky tend to compress the CTS and dampen its primary communication mode, vibration.. The CTS has "trigger" devices that allow us to physically engage it in its complimentary function.. If you were to stand at attention then fall forward, your hands reach out, intercept the ground then bring it toward you in a controlled fashion is the sort of trigger that is inspired by genetic instincts.. knowing that falling is painful, our bodies are hardwired to over-ride certain responses with the most appropriate.. this involves the more primitive instinctive CTS utilizing "tensegrity" to shift the body into something like a huge shock-absorber, dispersing much of the energy through-out the system.. this "activation" establishes a higher level of energetic coherence throughout the body.. it permits a holistic response to stimulus.. isolation training, while it is beneficial in some respects, often causes a dependence on isolated systems/groups diminishing the benefits of holistic responses..

I agree that isolation training has its benefits, but of equal or higher importance is developing an integrated holistic response.. of critical importance is one's goals.. isolation training may serve the weight-lifter or the body-builder well for their purposes.. but, it is my experience, both by observation and experience, that in most atheletic endeavors, a well trained and disciplined holistic approach, including CTS/muscle awarenesses produces the most beneficial results..

Surely, there is no harm in investigating the claims of CTS's benefits.. trying some of the recommended techniques, and making informed decisions.. it seems more prudent than rejecting claims based on "tradition", or things which we are comfortable with..

Be well..

[RonH]

The responses range from "well strength and quickness don't matter, so it'd still be even" to "strength is burden in this art, so I would" to the actual truth. Personally, I think reliance on outdated training methods and mystical concepts is what is holding TCMA back in terms of perfomance in combat.

What this would do is reduce all IMA to the most base and simplified form just because others don't want to believe, taking out the main principles of what differentiates IMA from EMA because what it is is eliminating every potential that the art could be taken to just because it isn't so basic and obvious.

What separates IMA from an external art is the energy work. Not energy from chemical reactions and increased blood flow, but the loosely bound energy that flows through the body. Cut this part of the studying out, there's no point in calling it IMA. It's just more efficient EMA. You might as well just go for bigger muscles, if you do that.

[RonH]

and, of course, the "mystical" quality.. i would be interested in hearing what you consider "mystical".. i have no concrete concept of "mystical" in relation to Taiji

Reading the Kybalion is a good start for understanding the mystical side of it. There should still be a copy available on online somewhere. If you can't find one, let me know.

[Fu-Pow]

I didn't see anyone adocating isolation exercises only, while neglecting the rest of the body. Nor did I see anyone state that practising the supplemental isolated weight training exercise while neglecting the targeted skill is the way to go. In fact, I see the contrary. And sorry to reiterate Scott's points, but no expert weight trainer or fitness expert would go that route.

There are only so many training hours in the day.

In TCMA we talk about jin which is a certain kind of strength/skill that doesn't have anything to do with strength in the classical sense. It has to do with the correct type and correct use of strength.

IMO, what is more important to martial arts is skill and endurance, not raw strength. Furthermore, if you did want to develop raw strength you'd be better off to use motions that simulate real functional motions that you would use in 3d space, using the whole body....not the working muscles or muscle groups in isolation hoping that some how its all going to "come together."

Sonnon's article, however, argues the extreme opposite. He states that there is no carryover between these isolated training exercises and actual performance. And a bigger and stronger muscle does not contribute to power or, again, performance, but is in fact detrimental.

Well where is the connection between these weight lifting exercises and martial arts performance? How do these exercises in anyway approximate how the body can be used most efficiently in a martial altercation? There's not a "scientific" way to make this connection. Its all opinion as far as I'm concerned for reasons I've already stated.

He used the golf swing as an example. Is swinging a bat any different? Not really IMO. But baseball players taking steroids in conjunction with heavy weight lifting started breaking records. How do you explain that?

At what cost?

Tiki Barber, an undersized NFL running back, spent his first couple of season injury prone and fragile. His recent success is attributed to his training program, which bulked him up. How many professional athletes improve themselves through weightlifting? I can't see how you can argue that the isolationist exercises has nothing to do with it.

Weightlifting has its place, especially for injury.

Most importantly, isolationist exercises that are done in conjunction with isolationist exercises targeting other areas of the body, become a whole body routine.

Whole body...with the parts in isolation? Where is the exercise that connects the isolated parts in the many ranges of usable motion available to the human body?

Lastly, Sonnon discusses power in terms of relaxation and tension, going from one to the other. This is what I've been discussing in terms of power, but somehow, I always seem to be on a different wavelength than most of the posters here.

To be quite honest I don't think Sonnon has quite the picture that IMA's have. He's a nice bridge though.

Let's try to keep this discussion civil if possible.

Ford Prefect is big on the rhetoric, so we can either do things the rhetorical, debate style or this can be a dialectic. I have no problem with either.

[Fu-Pow]

What this would do is reduce all IMA to the most base and simplified form just because others don't want to believe, taking out the main principles of what differentiates IMA from EMA because what it is is eliminating every potential that the art could be taken to just because it isn't so basic and obvious.

Amen!!!!

What separates IMA from an external art is the energy work. Not energy from chemical reactions and increased blood flow, but the loosely bound energy that flows through the body. Cut this part of the studying out, there's no point in calling it IMA. It's just more efficient EMA. You might as well just go for bigger muscles, if you do that.

Not sure I follow you there. There's definitely an electrical energy in the body but not enough to use in a martial sense. When you get hit with short energy it feels like an electric shock though, I think that is what causes the confusion. Mostly what we feel as "chi" is increased blood flow to the extremities because the joints and muscle relax and we are helping to push the veinous blood back toward the heart by expansion and contraction.

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/43/simon.html

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/43/sonnon1.html

[RonH]

Not sure I follow you there. There's definitely an electrical energy in the body but not enough to use in a martial sense.

When I talked about the loosely bound energy there, I wasn't meaning electricity, but chi. Yeah, electricity moves throughout the body and as you said, the level of activity is not as strong as the energy I was refering to.

Mostly what we feel as "chi" is increased blood flow to the extremities because the joints and muscle relax and we are helping to push the veinous blood back toward the heart by expansion and contraction.

That and chi travels with blood, aside from going along the meridians. Blood, as well as the chemicals and nutrients that flow through the veins carries some of the chi of a living organism. You can perform exercises to increase the blood flow to the hands, but once they are rested, the chi will still remain, unless you direct it to go elsewhere. It will also naturally move when you perform actions, such as massages, typing, etc. But, if you keep your hands still, you can keep the chi there for a long time after you stop doing the exercises that increase blood flow.

Exercises, like the 8 strands brocade, will make your hands and legs shake after doing them for a very short time, where as working all day long doing construction is not gonna necessarily make your hands shake.

Also, there is a noticable increase in chi when staying in a relaxed and calm state during a stressful situation. Chi flows from the subnaval dan tien to your hands when you want to perform a punch and 'supercharge' your punching hand before you make contact with the target.