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Thread: Internal training of strength

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Fu-Pow View Post
    There are only so many training hours in the day.

    In TCMA we talk about jin which is a certain kind of strength/skill that doesn't have anything to do with strength in the classical sense. It has to do with the correct type and correct use of strength.

    IMO, what is more important to martial arts is skill and endurance, not raw strength. Furthermore, if you did want to develop raw strength you'd be better off to use motions that simulate real functional motions that you would use in 3d space, using the whole body....not the working muscles or muscle groups in isolation hoping that some how its all going to "come together."



    Well where is the connection between these weight lifting exercises and martial arts performance? How do these exercises in anyway approximate how the body can be used most efficiently in a martial altercation? There's not a "scientific" way to make this connection. Its all opinion as far as I'm concerned for reasons I've already stated.



    At what cost?



    Weightlifting has its place, especially for injury.



    Whole body...with the parts in isolation? Where is the exercise that connects the isolated parts in the many ranges of usable motion available to the human body?



    To be quite honest I don't think Sonnon has quite the picture that IMA's have. He's a nice bridge though.




    Ford Prefect is big on the rhetoric, so we can either do things the rhetorical, debate style or this can be a dialectic. I have no problem with either.
    I am discussing movement in general, whether martial arts or not. Internal martial artists need muscles and nerves and connective tissue too. Externalists do as well. Externalists must understand relaxation, if they’ve ever contemplated speed and mobility and stamina. They must also understand whole body movement, if they’ve contemplated real power. So I still fail to see the distinction.

    Now, as far as my baseball example, you didn’t address my point. Does the weight lifting and increased muscle size impact the performance? Sonnon says no. What’s your answer?

    As far as the football example, my point wasn’t to say that weightlifting aids in injury recovery. It was to show its role in injury prevention and overall performance. Does his increased bulk and mucles mass have anything to do with his improved playing statistics and reduced injury?

    You ask where the exercise is that connects the whole body. It’s in the targeted skill. You never stop training the targeted skill. Weightlifting is supplemental to that. Sonnon’s premise is that weightlifting has no effect on the targeted skill. If you want to improve your 3 point shooting with a basketball, do shoulder presses, and suddenly your range improves, what have you demonstrated? That’s not a made-up example. Do you need a martial arts example? Doesn’t Matt Hughes lift weights? Are you telling me it has nothing to do with his performance?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabe View Post
    I am discussing movement in general, whether martial arts or not. Internal martial artists need muscles and nerves and connective tissue too. Externalists do as well. Externalists must understand relaxation, if they’ve ever contemplated speed and mobility and stamina. They must also understand whole body movement, if they’ve contemplated real power. So I still fail to see the distinction.
    External and internal are layers. Internal is a more subtle layer of the human movement. It's internal so its hard to see but can be felt. Excessive external development will inhibit this more subtle layer of movement, limiting potential.

    [quote]
    Now, as far as my baseball example, you didn’t address my point. Does the weight lifting and increased muscle size impact the performance? Sonnon says no. What’s your answer?[quote]

    Short term vs long term gain. It's an issue of quality of movement.

    As far as the football example, my point wasn’t to say that weightlifting aids in injury recovery. It was to show its role in injury prevention and overall performance. Does his increased bulk and mucles mass have anything to do with his improved playing statistics and reduced injury?
    Your original statement: Tiki Barber, an undersized NFL running back, spent his first couple of season injury prone and fragile. His recent success is attributed to his training program, which bulked him up. How many professional athletes improve themselves through weightlifting? I can't see how you can argue that the isolationist exercises has nothing to do with it.

    FP: His lack of injuries is attributed to his weightlifting but there's nothing really to prove that is the case.

    You ask where the exercise is that connects the whole body. It’s in the targeted skill. You never stop training the targeted skill. Weightlifting is supplemental to that.
    It can interfere with it as well depending on the biomechanics (aka jin) required. IMA has its own training methods to develop that jin and doesn't require weights. Some heavy object training is included but after the jin has been developed to a high level and doesn't use raw strength.


    Sonnon’s premise is that weightlifting has no effect on the targeted skill. If you want to improve your 3 point shooting with a basketball, do shoulder presses, and suddenly your range improves, what have you demonstrated?
    ????

    Do you need a martial arts example? Doesn’t Matt Hughes lift weights? Are you telling me it has nothing to do with his performance?
    I don't know if he does or doesn't?

    Your examples from professional athletics is kind of besides the point. Most pro athletes have short careers due to injuries. Maybe if the stopped lifting and did body weight exercises that more specific to their sport then they wouldn't suffer as many injuries.

    The point is that you can't treat the body like a side of beef. There's more complexity their than we are aware of. IMA has it down but they lack the scientific lingo to nail it down. So just because IMA isn't using "scientific" lingo doesn't mean in practical terms it doesn't work. It's just that more complex models are only becoming available now.

    FP

  3. #63
    "That and chi travels with blood, aside from going along the meridians. Blood, as well as the chemicals and nutrients that flow through the veins carries some of the chi of a living organism."[quote}

    Wouldn't weightlifting create larger muscles, creating more blood flow, carrying more chi then?

    "Excessive external development will inhibit this more subtle layer of movement, limiting potential."[quote]

    In a abnormally large illegal steroid using bodybuilder, I definatley agree. In someone who lifts 4 times a week for 1/2 hour a day, I think stretching exercizes would cure that.

    Let's be real. I, as others, are not disputing the importance of internal training. But a professional fighter/martial artist steps into a ring with Chuck Liddell relying on internal strength with no weight training to back it up. He would hand him his butt on a silver platter. Someone who lifts weights will hit/ fight harder than someone of the same skill level that doesn't. It's just real life.

    Not only that but weight lifting has several health benefits such as weight loss, helps people suffering from wasting diseases and diabeties. It releases natural occuring GH making organ and heart muscle walls stronger. It also inevitably increases self-confidence and self-esteem and discipline. I don't see how something so positive and healthy for you could interfere with the internal arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo983 View Post
    Wouldn't weightlifting create larger muscles, creating more blood flow, carrying more chi then?
    If you expand the size of the blood vessels and are able to increase blood production, that would help, but it still wouldn't be as much as energy work exercises.

  5. #65
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    Let's be real. I, as others, are not disputing the importance of internal training. But a professional fighter/martial artist steps into a ring with Chuck Liddell relying on internal strength with no weight training to back it up. He would hand him his butt on a silver platter. Someone who lifts weights will hit/ fight harder than someone of the same skill level that doesn't. It's just real life.
    Look, there's definitely something to be said for a general conditioning regime. I myself do knuckle pushups, hindu pushups, I jog and I'm looking at adding some other plyometric and yoga type strength building exercises.

    The Chen Taiji ancestors worked on farms and did their "conditioning" that way.

    But here's the kicker. If you really know your "internal" then any confrontation you get in should last about 3 seconds, not 10 rounds. The exteral conditioning that you do should basically be for when you screw up.

    No doubt Chuck Lidell is a good fighter with lots of experience. But if he did IMA's instead of the external style then he would be even better.

    One reason that hasn't been pointed out yet is that you can actually train more in IMA then EMA. That's because it doesn't wear out your body in the same way. I went to a 2-day seminar on Taiji, 8 hours/day, and while I was a little fuzzy my body actually felt energized.

    What this really boils down to is being connected through the usable range of motion. In external you are using too much, wasting alot. In internal you are using your joints, in concert, through their maximum USABLE range of motion. External will get you all twisted up, not allowing you to be "through", not allowing the internal layers to move independently of the external layers of the body. If this sounds too hocus pocus look at Sonnon's description of the double bag model that I posted.


    Not only that but weight lifting has several health benefits such as weight loss, helps people suffering from wasting diseases and diabeties. It releases natural occuring GH making organ and heart muscle walls stronger. It also inevitably increases self-confidence and self-esteem and discipline. I don't see how something so positive and healthy for you could interfere with the internal arts.
    Lifting weights is kind of an artifical way of moving. No doubt there are short term benefits but at what cost? You'd be better off to do movements that simulate functional motions. Otherwise you are just building an external "shell" around your body and limiting the natural counter motion of inside and outside.

  6. #66
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    Upon further reflection I guess you could think about it like this. The body is like a water balloon. Inside of that water balloon is another water balloon (and probably more layers like those little russian wood dolls that stack inside of each other.)

    The water balloon are not totally independent of each other because they are tacked down to each other at certain points. However, they can slide over each other to some degree. If you twist up the outer water balloon then you are twisting up the inner water baloon as well. You essentially are pinching off the water in the balloon from connecting with the ground. You create a pinch point or leverage point and the balloon topples over.

    However if you move in the right way you are moving the balloons such that you don't create any pinch points. The water goes "through" to the ground. When you strike in a certain direction you get the additive effect of all the balloons moving in the same direction...like a pulse.

    I think that looking at the body as a series of water filled balloons (or tensegrity structures) is more useful than looking to static structures. We are 90% water after all and sometimes Taiji is referred to as water boxing.

    If we think of the body as one layer and in terms of units then we get into trouble. We are not letting the inner part any degree of freedom and our balance is much worse as a result.

  7. #67
    "But here's the kicker. If you really know your "internal" then any confrontation you get in should last about 3 seconds, not 10 rounds. The exteral conditioning that you do should basically be for when you screw up."[quote]

    I suppose someone could say if someone really knows external, any confrontation should last about 3 seconds. I think it depends on several factors such as the skill level and fitness of your opponent, weight, etc. A 3 second fight is something to strive for but expect it to last longer.

    "Lifting weights is kind of an artifical way of moving. No doubt there are short term benefits but at what cost?"[quote]

    Being healthier,stronger, more confident etc. Seems more long term as long as someone has the discipline for it. Look at Jack Lalane (spelling). He is in his 90's. Still lifting weights.

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    Greetings..

    Perhaps we shouldn't be evaluating internal and external as separate issues.. what is more appropriate, in my opinion, is the optimum balance.. we can each cite examples that favor our particular perspectives, but.. as much as is possible, we should look at an overall perspective and find the most beneficial path according to our goals.. some people are willing to sacrifice long-term health for short-term glory.. others, will choose a path with staged progression toward healthier "autumn years".. right and wrong are arbitrary values according to personal standards.. One of the great mistakes is to compare ourselves to extreme examples of our perspectives.. MMA champs, olympic body-builders, diminutive masters with disproportionate powers, mystical monks, etc.. setting realistic goals is a good way to avoid confusion.. realizing, of course, that there are no destinations.. just new points of departure..

    Personally, i work with my own body weight.. or, i don't exceed my body weight in my weight or resistance training.. my mentor said that if i can control my own weight, i can control those that oppose it.. endurance, range of motion, and knowledge (technique, anatomy, physics, energy, medicine, etc...) have served me well...

    Be well...
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  9. #69
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    Hey, the mute and blind monks of old that can knock you out at 50 paces by spitting a broken piece of a peanut shell at you are just awesome.

    :-P

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaiChiBob View Post
    Greetings..

    Perhaps we shouldn't be evaluating internal and external as separate issues.. what is more appropriate, in my opinion, is the optimum balance.. we can each cite examples that favor our particular perspectives, but..
    Agree. Internal and external are both necessary for "internal." The problem is when you start to develop the external to the exclusion of internal training. You limit your potential. You are creating a very strong shell that cannot be supported by whats inside.

    as much as is possible, we should look at an overall perspective and find the most beneficial path according to our goals....some people are willing to sacrifice long-term health for short-term glory.. others, will choose a path with staged progression toward healthier "autumn years".. right and wrong are arbitrary values according to personal standards..
    Great point. Short term gains can be made from weight lifting, no doubt about that....but as I stated before.....at what cost? External development is short term...quick and dirty. However, you begin to realize that you can not sustain this over a lifetime. The injuries begin to accumulate and you can either to more of the same to try and counter your injuries. For example, if you have a rotator cuff injury you can build up the muscles around it to imobilize the joint.....OR you can find a new way of moving that would have prevented that injury in the first place. Its a non-issue when you are young and strong naturally...it becomes an issue as you age. I look at my kung fu teacher (external Choy Lay Fut) and I look at my Taiji teacher, same age but my Taiji teacher is a lot better off physically and can still toss me around like its a joke. He's still improving and would put most if not all challengers to shame. My kung fu teacher still tries to use his body like he did when he was 20 and he doesn't posses the raw strength anymore so his techniques are not as effective. He's still in good shape relatively speaking compared to most lazy ass americans but his body is falling apart.

    One of the great mistakes is to compare ourselves to extreme examples of our perspectives.. MMA champs, olympic body-builders, diminutive masters with disproportionate powers, mystical monks, etc.. setting realistic goals is a good way to avoid confusion.. realizing, of course, that there are no destinations.. just new points of departure..
    Great quote.......I'm gonna steal that.

    Personally, i work with my own body weight.. or, i don't exceed my body weight in my weight or resistance training.. my mentor said that if i can control my own weight, i can control those that oppose it.. endurance, range of motion, and knowledge (technique, anatomy, physics, energy, medicine, etc...) have served me well...

    Be well...
    I think that body weight is a great tool for developing external along with internal. Its sets a limit and forces you to do real functional movements to move your body around. The more you can incorporate internal principles into the external development the better.

  11. #71
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    [QUOTE=Dingo983;709223]"But here's the kicker. If you really know your "internal" then any confrontation you get in should last about 3 seconds, not 10 rounds. The exteral conditioning that you do should basically be for when you screw up."

    I suppose someone could say if someone really knows external, any confrontation should last about 3 seconds. I think it depends on several factors such as the skill level and fitness of your opponent, weight, etc. A 3 second fight is something to strive for but expect it to last longer.
    In a match between IMA masters the level of skill will be decided in seconds. That's how effective it is. Its like the nuclear bomb of kung fu. Nei jia arose out of Wai Jia. Its newer technology. Why use the old stuff when the new stuff is readily available?

    "Lifting weights is kind of an artifical way of moving. No doubt there are short term benefits but at what cost?"

    Being healthier,stronger, more confident etc. Seems more long term as long as someone has the discipline for it. Look at Jack Lalane (spelling). He is in his 90's. Still lifting weights.
    Weight bearing exercise in general definitely has benefits with weight or not. If you look at Jack Lalane he does a whole variety of other body weight exercises in addition to lifting weights. He definitely doesn't have any internal skills either and not a martial artist, so for your average person lifting weights is probably OK. If you want proficiency in IMA then no. Which was the original question of this thread.
    Last edited by Fu-Pow; 09-27-2006 at 02:40 PM.

  12. #72
    Hi Fu Pow,

    You are one of the most misinformed persons concerning weight training I have come across in a very long time. All you are doing is repeating very OLD and absolutely FALSE platitudes.

    I have been lifting weights for 30 years and have never suffered a serious, debilitating or long term injury secondary to the weight training!

    You are fantasizing concerning your 3 second fight theory. It is not the IMA that would allow anyone to win in such a short period of time; it is strategy and tactics. Even the inexperienced can win a fight that easily! About 20 years ago I met a young man who asked me if I could give him just one technique that would be very effective. I gave him a technique along with the strategy how to use it. He had occasion to use it sometime later and BEHOLD!!! The fight was over in about 1 second! He was completely untrained, had never been in a fight, was not very big or athletic, but WAS a weight trainer. Your opinions are not based upon facts they are based upon common IMA fantasy!

    The benefits of weight training far outweigh the detriments. Especially since the detriments are primarily due to carelessness and improper training technique. Anything done improperly can be detrimental. You are repeating falsehoods concerning weight training. You do not know the slightest thing you are talking about.

    The benefits of weight training ARE sustained over a life time as long as one continues to train. The assertion that weight training creates ”…a very strong shell that cannot be supported by whats inside,” could not be more false. This is just another ill-informed platitude. There is NO truth to the assertion that weight trainers are weak inside. Weight training does not occur within a vacuum.

    I have been weight training for over 30 years. I have been practicing yoga for over 35 years. I have practiced internal and external MA for over 30 years. I am as strong and fast as I have ever been and will most likely be so for another 30 years. I am 5’9” 185-195#. My resting heart rate is 48-52. I am 47 years old and I can still perform the full splits and the plow pose putting my knees over my head onto the floor. I have suffered horrendous injuries; none of them secondary to external MA. It is because of my strength and flexibility that I am still able to train safely and effectively in the MA. My strength and flexibility have PROTECTED me from incuring more serious injury and have assisted me in recovery from those injuries.

    Everything you have stated is your personal uninformed opinion ONLY and NONE of it is based upon any kind of facts! Your comments are old and I mean OLD IMA platitudes commonly used to justify/cover up physical weakness.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    I have suffered horrendous injuries; none of them secondary to external MA. It is because of my strength and flexibility that I am still able to train safely and effectively in the MA. My strength and flexibility have PROTECTED me from incuring more serious injury and have assisted me in recovery from those injuries.
    You just undermined your whole argument.

    Everything you have stated is your personal uninformed opinion ONLY and NONE of it is based upon any kind of facts! Your comments are old and I mean OLD IMA platitudes commonly used to justify/cover up physical weakness.
    I'm not impressed because you are older and/or have trained longer. If you train incorrectly you can spend a whole life time and accomplish nothing. You might know more "tricks" but its no indication of priniciples understood.

    I have trained in TKD, Aikido, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut (for 10 years) and IMA for the same amount. I have sparred in various formats and against boxers. I have come to the conclusion through my own hands on experience that IMAs are head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to martial arts. They are an evolution out of external, they transcend and include external.

    It is for this reason that I have completely abandoned my previous external training and am focusing solely on Taiji training now. Its where its at.

    I may not have the perfect "scientific" argument for why it works, it just does and it conforms to a more natural way of moving the body. The potential for martial development is higher.

    But here's the catch....it takes longer to develop. Its not quick in dirty...it won't make you "ready for the street" in 8 weeks. It takes years of dedicated practice and study using the CORRECT METHODS and conforming to the CORRECT PRINICIPLES. It takes a lot of "untraining" of bad habits. Most people are not willing to go through that to reach the next level so they just work with the natural attributes that they have and try to make them better. I don't fault anyone for that.

    Is it any wonder that there have been so many converts to IMA out of EMA? Why the conversion? Because its like comparing a rusted out old oldsmobile to a bmw sportcar. Maybe I should water down my comments to be more diplomatic but it is the way through my own experience that I have come to see things.

  14. #74
    Hi Fu Pow,

    Please do not confuse my comments as a criticism of IMA. I enjoy and appreciate the practice of IMA. I believe and adhere to IMA principles of training and many elite athletes do as well. But they DO NOT adhere to IMA training principles while avoiding weight training. I am merely countering the prolific misinformation you are writing concerning weight training. You simply do not know what you are talking about! Any “well-educated” athletic trainer, coach or layman would read your comments and laugh. There is a mountain of scientific evidence to support weight training as a part of a well rounded fitness/athletic program.

    You are propagating IMA fantasy that is counter to established, scientifically proven athletic training principles and that is why I am responding. I am not interested in changing your opinion. It is already clear to me your mind is made up. You are caught in the IMA fantasy. I am commenting in order to not let your misunderstanding of weight training principles and their results negatively influence novices who may consider your comments worth listening too.

    I have not undermined any of my argument. Perhaps you missed the part where I stated that my serious injuries were NOT due to MA training. It is beneficial to try to read ALL the information as stated in order to avoid inadvertently ignoring the parts of the argument that refute your statements. Only two serious injuries (I just remembered one other) were “sports” related and both were due to not following proper safety precautions. That is, not performing the actions according to proper training technique or procedure. As I have already stated many times, any activity if performed improperly becomes dangerous and subjects one to possible injury. If I had not had a good strength base to begin with my injuries would plague me to this day nearly, 30 years later. Neither injury affects me to this day. The other serious injuries I have suffered were work related. Strength training was also part of the recovery process from all of these injuries. It is due to my weight training and flexibility I am still able to train. Other individuals without adequate flexibility AND strength would have suffered greater injury, one of which would have been a broken neck.

    When you have trained a few world class athletes then maybe you could possibly have something worth listening too concerning weight training. All I have stated, as well as Ford, is well documented and proven thousands of times by athletes all around the world for thousands of years. You are proposing individuals disregard proven principles and listen to you. This would be foolish since your comments are contrary to reason and the evidence! No one need take our word for it. All it takes is a little bit of research. You cannot refute the scientific evidence other than to ignore it. If your method of athletic training was valuable elite athletes would all stop weight training and follow your methods. They do not! Right now all you are repeating is falsehood that has been repeatedly demonstrated to be falsehood through repeated scientific experimentation.

    As an aside, Tiger Woods has been weight training for a few years now. It has not negatively affected his golf swing. He is arguably the greatest golfer of all time. If he had found the weight training to hinder his golf game he wouldn’t do it. He has even inspired other golfers to try weight training.
    Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 09-28-2006 at 12:14 AM.

  15. #75
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    Greetings..

    It occurs to me that we might benefit from people's examples of "weight training".. i weight train, but i don't weight train for bulk or to have an impressive body.. i train to enhance my skills.. i use the Total Gym about 1/2 hour a day 5-6 days a week, i use a Pilates Ball another half-hour per day.. i have a set-up where i use old bicycle inner-tubes secured to a frame to provide resistance through most of my postures and transitions (most bicycle shops have bunches of old inner-tubes).. i lay on the floor and watch a half-hour of TV with a 25 lb. sand-bag resting on my abs and shift to obliques on alternating days.. one day a month, i try to carry the sand bag for 8 hours without setting it down.. i can lay it in my lap, rest it on my shoulders, balance it on my head, just don't put it down.. it's an enlightening exercise.. i push the heavy bag (100lbs), working on nuances of balance and minimium effort, out to 45° or more.. another enlightening effort.. one of my favorite exercises for tendon and ligament work is "flat-plate" exercises, where i use stove-burner covers and go through a series of twists and turns rotating my arms through a huge range of motions while balancing the plates on my palms and keeping the plates parallel to the ground (we do this in class, too).. with 25 lb sand bag balanced on my head, i do low single-whips 10 times each side and "side-to-sides" as much as my aging knees can bear.. three time a week, i spend about an hour with "pole-shaking" exercises.. i have an old 50 lb heavy-bag that i rest in the crooks of my arms like "pushing" while i shift my weight through differing transitions.. unless you figure how to utilize some internal energies, this doesn't last very long.. then, a day or two of surfing/swimming keeps it loose.. many of these are done while watching the news or discovery channel, or some such entertainment.. before bedtime, i try to devote a half-hour to flute (shakuhachi) playing, as a breath meditation.. alternating between Nprmal Abdominal Breathing and Reverse Abdominal Breathing.. That's about it for my personal physical training.. how about you guys? I still teach 3 days a week, train with different players in varying levels of pushing from the subtle and nuanced, to the robust and physical before or after class and a separate Monday session.. i spar/roll whenever the opportunity arises (once or twice a week)..

    Perhaps, we might mis-understand each other when we say "weight training".. i think of my regimen compared to someone pumping hundreds of pounds and still consider we are both "weight training".. maybe sharing our perspectives we could move closer to a common ground.. we would be better served in trying to find an optimum that develops us to our highest potential rather than reject notions that we haven't given a fair measure to understand or experience..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

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