Internal training of strength

[spiralstair]

Hi Bob,
Try this one. Teach yourself to balance on the ball on both knees, keeping a vertical line between the knees and shoulders through the torso.
Then take a 'weight' that is easily held in one hand(like a dumbbell) and pass it around your waist like a basketball.
Next make circles in the air with the weight in front of your abdomen. Because of your position balancing on the ball, the weighted movement will cause your tan tien to 'circle' in an easily percieved fashion.
I have used this 'external' method to give students a rapid entry into one of the fundemental internal methods, that of circling the tantien. Like most of the 'internal' , the hardest part is 'gettting the feeling', so shortcuts on the path are to be appreciated, no matter where they originated.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

spiralstair: You have a lot of faith in my abilities, LOL.. i can visualize what you suggest, and it makes perfect sense.. doing it on the other hand, well.... i'll give it a go.. i've tried the balancing thing and.. it's a booger, now you want me add weights? actually, the visualization makes it worthwhile, i'll let you know how it goes..

Thanks for the suggestion.. Be well...

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu Pow,

Please do not confuse my comments as a criticism of IMA. I enjoy and appreciate the practice of IMA. I believe and adhere to IMA principles of training and many elite athletes do as well.

They do?

But they DO NOT adhere to IMA training principles while avoiding weight training. I am merely countering the prolific misinformation you are writing concerning weight training. You simply do not know what you are talking about! Any “well-educated” athletic trainer, coach or layman would read your comments and laugh. There is a mountain of scientific evidence to support weight training as a part of a well rounded fitness/athletic program.

But not as part of an internal martial arts regimen. The priniciples of each may have there merits but they do not mesh.

You are propagating IMA fantasy that is counter to established, scientifically proven athletic training principles and that is why I am responding. I am not interested in changing your opinion. It is already clear to me your mind is made up. You are caught in the IMA fantasy. I am commenting in order to not let your misunderstanding of weight training principles and their results negatively influence novices who may consider your comments worth listening too.

I know alot about anatomy, tissue development and yes, weightlifting. My background is in biology.

[quote]
I have not undermined any of my argument. Perhaps you missed the part where I stated that my serious injuries were NOT due to MA training. It is beneficial to try to read ALL the information as stated in order to avoid inadvertently ignoring the parts of the argument that refute your statements. Only two serious injuries (I just remembered one other) were “sports” related and both were due to not following proper safety precautions. That is, not performing the actions according to proper training technique or procedure. [/quote}

You need to be clearer in what you write because you never explicitly said that. You said "my injuries were never secondary to my external MA training." Whatever that means and plus you didn't say anything about how your awesome strength and flexibility prevented your "horrendous injuries."

As I have already stated many times, any activity if performed improperly becomes dangerous and subjects one to possible injury. If I had not had a good strength base to begin with my injuries would plague me to this day nearly, 30 years later. Neither injury affects me to this day. The other serious injuries I have suffered were work related.

Movement is movement....whether you are working or playing.

Strength training was also part of the recovery process from all of these injuries. It is due to my weight training and flexibility I am still able to train. Other individuals without adequate flexibility AND strength would have suffered greater injury, one of which would have been a broken neck.

Your opinion.

When you have trained a few world class athletes then maybe you could possibly have something worth listening too concerning weight training.

How many world class athletes have you trained?

All I have stated, as well as Ford, is well documented and proven thousands of times by athletes all around the world for thousands of years. You are proposing individuals disregard proven principles and listen to you. This would be foolish since your comments are contrary to reason and the evidence! No one need take our word for it. All it takes is a little bit of research. You cannot refute the scientific evidence other than to ignore it. If your method of athletic training was valuable elite athletes would all stop weight training and follow your methods. They do not! Right now all you are repeating is falsehood that has been repeatedly demonstrated to be falsehood through repeated scientific experimentation.

As an aside, Tiger Woods has been weight training for a few years now. It has not negatively affected his golf swing. He is arguably the greatest golfer of all time. If he had found the weight training to hinder his golf game he wouldn’t do it. He has even inspired other golfers to try weight training.

Dude, your whole argument is one big appeal to authority. WTF do you know? Why should anyone listen to you or the so called experts?

I know first hand that what you are saying is totally bunk. I don't have to go on pubmed and look up articles to support my opinion. I have experienced "internal strength" with my own senses. There's a scientific explanation there, no doubt, but you don't have it and neither do the so called physiology experts.

Why should I listen to you over my Taiji teacher who has massive internal skill and can readily demonstrate and who has never lifted a weight in his life?

Think about Taiji for a second, the whole principle is not to use raw force against force...what is weight lifting? Using raw force against the force of gravity to make your muscles hypertrophy. Taiji can be extremely hard or extremely soft but you have to learn to relax first and not fight force with muscle, it has to be a whole body affair...you become hard through extreme softness. Its a totally different way of moving.

IMO you are doing a huge disservice to beginners by stating that weight training is an acceptable adjunct to IMA training. Until you can separate "internal strength" from "external strength" then it is going to cause a lot of confusion.

It is obvious to me that you have zero understanding of internal principles.

Stick with your weights and external MAs and you'll do fine but don't confuse the two.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...lr%3D%26sa%3DN

Now here's a great example of how weightlifting conforms to internal principles.

[Dingo983]

Looks like the chi ball is in your court now Scott...............................

[Ronin22]

Don't know if he's a IMA but just someone's experience



Lisa Zimmerman
NFLPLAYERS.COM
10/17/2003


Wide receiver Amani Toomer is now the New York Giants' all-time leader in receiving yards, a record he reached earlier this season, in game two against the Dallas Cowboys. It is quite a feat considering the names that have come before him, including the great Frank Gifford whom he passed for the record. It is also quite an accomplishment considering that Toomer never thought he'd be with the team long enough to get near, let alone set, such a record.

After being drafted in the second round out of the University of Michigan in 1996, Toomer's ensuing production was not what had been anticipated. In his rookie year he suffered a season-ending knee injury after playing in only seven games. He spent 1997 and 1998 mostly on punt return duty.

Then in 1999, things clicked into place and he not only became a full-time starter at wide receiver, but became the first Giants receiver in 11 years to gain more than 1,000 yards in a single season. He also set a Giants record for most receptions in a season with 79.

"After my third year, I didn't think I was going to be here," he admitted. "They had used a lot of draft picks for receivers. Every time you're in a situation like that you have to evaluate your opportunities and make something out of those, and I didn't. It was a lot of nights staying up thinking, what's wrong? I realized my opportunities weren't going to be as many, so I decided every time I got an opportunity I had to show what I could do.

"Before that it was like a mental block and I couldn't get over that hump. Then after the third year I thought, I don't feel comfortable here, I'm probably not going to be here next year, so I'm going to do the best I can so the next team that picks me up I'll be ready. Instead, I played good here and they kept me on."

One of the things that helped him both mentally and physically was Kung Fu, which he first started studying in 1997. Initially he was daunted by the very different demands it placed on his body as compared to football. However, he quickly embraced those differences and has used them to his advantage.

"It augments (playing football) in some ways and in some ways it's its own entity. The stances build up my legs. I had torn my ACL and my leg wasn't coming back strong and I lost a lot of flexibility so that helped me. And as a wide receiver you're getting press technique so you have to find a way to use your hands and your energy to ward off defenders."

As far as the mental side, that part was a lot simpler.

"I just really enjoyed it and it was a positive atmosphere," he said. "If you're playing football, a lot of the time if you're not playing up to the standard they think you should be at it's not always a positive atmosphere. Kung Fu was positive and encouraging."
The result? Well, in addition to establishing the aforementioned Giants receiving record, Toomer is now a black belt.

And, if you were wondering what happened to Toomer's long dreadlocks, which he sported for years, well it turned out he was a sort of reverse Samson, the biblical figure who derived his strength from his long hair. For Toomer, it proved to be a health hazard.

"I had a big helmet and when I put it on it was OK. But then my hair would get wet," he laughed, "and it would mat down a little bit. Then my helmet would get a little play in there and then I would get hit. I ended up with two concussions and I never had a concussion before."

Now the hair is gone and he hasn't had a concussion since. So, Giants' fans can be confident; in more ways than one, Toomer has a good head on his shoulders.

[fiercest tiger]

Can someone put a clip of internal strength using weights or what the whole arguemnbet is about to show the differences are>?

Garry

[Dingo983]

From my angle the argument is some people think weight training interferes with the internal arts and the long term effects of weight training are detrimental to your health. Others (such as myself) think weight training compliments the internal arts, making them more effective and the long term effects of weight training are benificial to your health.

Also the people who agree with the 1st train of thought are wrong.
The people who agree with me are right.

[Fu-Pow]

Greetings..

It occurs to me that we might benefit from people's examples of "weight training".. i weight train, but i don't weight train for bulk or to have an impressive body.. i train to enhance my skills.. i use the Total Gym about 1/2 hour a day 5-6 days a week, i use a Pilates Ball another half-hour per day.. i have a set-up where i use old bicycle inner-tubes secured to a frame to provide resistance through most of my postures and transitions (most bicycle shops have bunches of old inner-tubes).. i lay on the floor and watch a half-hour of TV with a 25 lb. sand-bag resting on my abs and shift to obliques on alternating days.. one day a month, i try to carry the sand bag for 8 hours without setting it down.. i can lay it in my lap, rest it on my shoulders, balance it on my head, just don't put it down.. it's an enlightening exercise.. i push the heavy bag (100lbs), working on nuances of balance and minimium effort, out to 45° or more.. another enlightening effort.. one of my favorite exercises for tendon and ligament work is "flat-plate" exercises, where i use stove-burner covers and go through a series of twists and turns rotating my arms through a huge range of motions while balancing the plates on my palms and keeping the plates parallel to the ground (we do this in class, too).. with 25 lb sand bag balanced on my head, i do low single-whips 10 times each side and "side-to-sides" as much as my aging knees can bear.. three time a week, i spend about an hour with "pole-shaking" exercises.. i have an old 50 lb heavy-bag that i rest in the crooks of my arms like "pushing" while i shift my weight through differing transitions.. unless you figure how to utilize some internal energies, this doesn't last very long.. then, a day or two of surfing/swimming keeps it loose.. many of these are done while watching the news or discovery channel, or some such entertainment.. before bedtime, i try to devote a half-hour to flute (shakuhachi) playing, as a breath meditation.. alternating between Nprmal Abdominal Breathing and Reverse Abdominal Breathing.. That's about it for my personal physical training.. how about you guys? I still teach 3 days a week, train with different players in varying levels of pushing from the subtle and nuanced, to the robust and physical before or after class and a separate Monday session.. i spar/roll whenever the opportunity arises (once or twice a week)..

Perhaps, we might mis-understand each other when we say "weight training".. i think of my regimen compared to someone pumping hundreds of pounds and still consider we are both "weight training".. maybe sharing our perspectives we could move closer to a common ground.. we would be better served in trying to find an optimum that develops us to our highest potential rather than reject notions that we haven't given a fair measure to understand or experience..

Be well..

Bob, your version of weight training sounds more like a "structural diagnostic" rather than an attempt to make your external muscles stronger. Adding weight to your routine can reveal where you are "stuck" or "holding on" with the outside and not letting things get "through."

FP

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Dingo,

I myself believe the same thing as you, as long as the weight training is for functional strength and works the 3 planes (3 circle in YKM) as we call it. The weighted ball is like a medicine ball and works the core muscles and gives you strength, flexibilty, balance in the full range of movement which i believe weights work more 1 plane more so. I maybe wrong but from my studies and homework the ball training and medicine ball is one of the best tools for explosive internal power from external and internal. Add chi kung and pad workout and you have some flow and force happening!! Many systems use weights even if its the long pole shaking etc its still weight training combined with breathing just like normal weight training i think not much difference apart functional movement and application of what you train for.

That being said just normal weight training for strength is good for bone and muscle also long as its done right its a very important means to longevity especially when one gets old.

regards
Garry

[Blacktiger]

Bob, your version of weight training sounds more like a "structural diagnostic" rather than an attempt to make your external muscles stronger. Adding weight to your routine can reveal where you are "stuck" or "holding on" with the outside and not letting things get "through."

FP

Ring training is good for pointing this out as well. Staying relaxed is essential while performing the movements

[fiercest tiger]

Im not sure but i think i read an article about the shaolin rings that if used with punching hard with force it can have damage of the connective tissue, dont quote me on that though but the weight and force traveling then snapping the arm may not be that good unless you are doing tension sets with the rings and slow movements?

Garry

[CFT]

Next make circles in the air with the weight in front of your abdomen.

The circles are parallel to the body? If I was looking straight at you, I would see you trace an "O" around your abdomen?

You're not making a circle away from and then towards your abdomen, kind of like a rowing action?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Fu Pow,

Yes, professional and elite athletes use identical principles to those practiced in IMA. They do not call them by the same names of course. IMA principles are universal principles. They are not unique to IMA and neither were they originated by IMA. Professional and elite athletes practice relaxed, slow movements to rehearse muscle memory, enhance their proprioceptic sense, and identify flaws in form. They visualize their movements during relaxed meditative states as well as prior to their events. They also work on performing their skills at full speed while focusing on developing a relaxed intent. That is what “being in the zone” means, to have a unified body and mind in the midst of chaotic surroundings and intense pressure situations. Athletes have been using these techniques for at least the last 40-50 years now. Hmmmmm, I wonder it IMA practice any of these techniques???? I THINK SO!!! Any person who has taken the time to research elite training programs would have discovered these training protocols are actively practiced.

Are you implying that these protocols only have merit when practiced within an IMA program? If so you are once again incorrect. These techniques, primarily the mental ones which are truly the inner or internal training, precede the known IMA. These principles were practiced at least as far back as 400 B.C. A Taoist treatise called Nei-Yeh, Inward Training (literally nei= inward, yei= work) which precedes the Tao Te Ching, lists many of these techniques and encourages the practice of proper eating, drinking and physical movement, but primarily proper cultivation of the inner mind. However, these internal techniques are not unique to China. They are part of traditions from nearly every culture. Don’t take my word for it though and don’t bother doing any research either. I know your Tai Chi master has all the answers.
_____

In the circumstance you have mentioned it was unnecessary to be clearer in my comments. I stated what I meant and what I meant is what I said. If you did not understand my meaning then either please ask what I mean or use a dictionary. I have found them to be very useful when I do not understand a word. I used one 4 times yesterday!

I stated:

I have suffered horrendous injuries; none of them secondary to external MA.

The word “secondary” can mean: “as a result of”. So using different terms the sentence says, I have suffered horrendous injuries; none of them AS A RESULT OF practicing external MA.

I do not need to go into greater detail to demonstrate how I recovered from my injuries more swiftly because of my strength and flexibility. The evidence is found in the MOUNTAIN of scientific evidence regarding this topic that I have repeatedly mentioned and that you prefer to ignore. Strength and flexibility are well-known factors in reducing the severity of injuries due to strengthened body integrity and increased elasticity of the joints and muscles. A flexible muscle/tendon/joint will stretch further before it becomes injured thus reducing the opportunity for injury to occur and decreasing the overall damage in the event injury does occur. Increased muscle tone secondary (as a result of) to strength training reduces the severity of damage due to resistance to stresses that would cause damage. For example: if you had to lift 100# and I had to lift 100# I am less likely to suffer injury since I am conditioned to lift such a weight. If the weight was so great that it caused injury I would suffer less injury due to my conditioned ability to lift greater weight than you. The increased blood flow to muscles that occurs as a result of weight training will reduce the time for recovery from injury. There are other factors involved I will not take the time to mention. However, I will point out that if one were to engage in a REAL and serious altercation, receiving strikes and kicks, my ability to receive and tolerate such abuse would far exceed yours. I would suffer less injury and the injuries I did receive would cause much less damage.

Don't try to worm out of this comparison by using your powerful Chi, listening skills or the agility you developed by practicing slow movements. A REAL fight is dirty and to the death. Not these little school yard duels or bar fights most people mean when they say a REAL fight. A REAL fight involved head bashing, clubbing, stabbing and the most dangerous weapon, SUPRISE. When your Chi protects your skull from fracturing when being hit from behind by a baseball bat, then you will have something to talk about!

Returning to healing from injuries:

These are not my opinions, they are well established FACTS well known by those educated in such matters and easily learned about by anyone who is willing to do a bit of research. Which we know is NOT you! Here is a good idea: how about going to talk to a physical therapist. Don’t take my word for it. Ask a person whose job it is to treat injuries. I know what you will learn because I have worked as the exercise trainer at a large physical therapy facility.

I have not trained world class athletes, but I have trained WITH national class athletes. Two of which were my best friend and his father, both national class athletes. I was a state class athlete myself. I have worked with physical therapists, trainers of professional football teams, helped my friend with his Master’s thesis in exercise physiology, and I worked with and have known Chuck Liddel’s trainer for about 10 years.

My point is there are no professional or elite athletes that train strictly according to your espoused methodology while thousands, if not millions, of these individuals have trained according to the method I have espoused. Professional and elite athletes have one primary goal in mind, TO WIN!!! They will do whatever it takes to WIN!!! If the methodology you espouse worked it would be used. SOME of the principles of Internal training ARE used BECAUSE they DO work. They are not used as a replacement for the well established methods. They are used as an adjunct.

When thousands of athletes have trained according to your method and more of them win than those who have trained using the well established and scientifically determined protocols then perhaps maybe you might say something worth listening too. Until then all you are is an ill informed individual adhering to incorrect, tired, old and outdated IMA platitudes.

It would also be of some benefit to research a bit more into the history of some of the IMA. Not all of the training protocols involved ONLY the slow dance-like movements used in today’s Tai Chi. There have been many EMA protocols used in IMA training in the past. Some are still used today.

[Scott R. Brown]

Fu Pow continued,

Dude, your whole argument is one big appeal to authority. WTF do you know? Why should anyone listen to you or the so called experts?

I know first hand that what you are saying is totally bunk. I don't have to go on pubmed and look up articles to support my opinion. I have experienced "internal strength" with my own senses. There's a scientific explanation there, no doubt, but you don't have it and neither do the so called physiology experts.

Why should I listen to you over my Taiji teacher who has massive internal skill and can readily demonstrate and who has never lifted a weight in his life?

Think about Taiji for a second, the whole principle is not to use raw force against force...what is weight lifting? Using raw force against the force of gravity to make your muscles hypertrophy. Taiji can be extremely hard or extremely soft but you have to learn to relax first and not fight force with muscle, it has to be a whole body affair...you become hard through extreme softness. Its a totally different way of moving.

IMO you are doing a huge disservice to beginners by stating that weight training is an acceptable adjunct to IMA training. Until you can separate "internal strength" from "external strength" then it is going to cause a lot of confusion.

It is obvious to me that you have zero understanding of internal principles.

Stick with your weights and external MAs and you'll do fine but don't confused the two.

Wow!! Quite a diatribe!! Why should anyone listen to the experts? Hmmm that is a good question! I wish I could come up with a good response to that one! Boy, I really thought I was making a good argument for my position until you hit me with that zinger! I just don’t think I can come up with a good argument for that one! I am just too dumbfounded by how foolish that statement is!!

The question here is, “How do you reason with the unreasonable?” The answer is. “You can’t!! You are unreasonable and it is impossible to reason with you. But then that is not my purpose here. It is to protect the innocent and unknowing from your ridiculous comments.

Let me see here.

1) I am only appealing to authority.

If MOUNTAINS of scientific evidence is appealing to authority, that is, the authority of the scientific method, then I guess you are correct for once. Science has only given humans, better food, better living conditions, better medicines and medical care, longer and better quality of life, air travel, long distance communication via a little box you hold in your hand or a bigger box you have on your desk or in your lap, hmmmm and I think a lot of other things too. Are you suggesting that exercise physiology is the ONE area where the scientific method does not work? Gosh I should have listened to that little nobody on the internet and ignored the MOUNTAINS scientific evidence. I have seen the light!!!!

You have what is called “Willful Ignorance”. That is someone who simply does not want to be bothered with facts. They believe what they want to believe because it makes them feel good and don’t want deal with reality.

I tell you what have your Tai Chi master engage in a few MMA events or better yet, a few prison fights. When he wins them all hands down with his MASSIVE Chi power, he will convince the world that his method is the very best. That is how these things are determined. Not by making empty claims and demonstrating simple tricks to the unknowing and gullible masses under controlled circumstances. These tricks can be awe inspiring until their secret is understood. Effectiveness is demonstrated in the real world, not in a Tai Chi class. Feel free to live in your fantasy world, but don’t encourage the innocent to join you! You may come to regret the Karmic debt.