A definition of Internal strength

[fiercest tiger]

Scott BROTHER,

You just summed up my method in a nutshell, you have given me better understanding through words then i could have ever tried to write it. That was to me a very very good discription of relaxed power.

Can i ask you about what you train as in weight type training, body weight, core strength, flexibilty, form, internal, meditation etc Are you a taiji player or some other internal player?


You, Dr John, Taiji Bob are very talented writers and i really enjoy your post, thanks again.

respect
Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Nicely articulated, Scott.. if i can add a couple of considerations.. look for natural movements in your intention, there is an abundance of power in natural motion (Ninjitsu players are very good at this).... contrived motions are contradictions requiring mental interference.. that is the "relaxed" appearance of high-level players, they rely on natural movement.. natural movement appears less threatening, the opponent doesn't recognize the threat as easily.. Scott's example of the "wave-like" motion is usually exaggerated early in the training, but becomes almost imperceptable.. as we approach coherence and mind/body unity the intention to result time is nearly simulatneous.. although we have discussed the connective tissue situation ad nauseum, it bears mention in this topic, and so, there it is....

Too often, there is confusion between relaxed and limp.. relaxed tension (Peng) is necessary.. Heavy-bag work affords us hours of deep introspection into bio-mechanics, power generation, and results.. Qi is like a highly refined fuel, for maximum results we need a well-tuned vehicle.. depending on mystical manifestations will you waiting and wanting.. refine and maintain (tune your body) with clarity and awareness of purpose, and be dedicated and diligent.. the results will be observable..

Be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

(It is technique over strength, and this is what is meant by internal over external power. The power is not some mystical effect of Chi, it is the coordinated use of mind and body used in the most efficient manner. This has been laboratory tested by the way and demonstrated scientifically to produce more power using force pads to measure the power generated.)

I would say no, qi is mystical only to those who make it so. Otherwise its just a word describing something that is well understood by those who use it. What you describe is still using the bodies own power, not in the same light as inner power which is kind of confusing using the word power in this sense. Skill would probably be more understandable since none to very little power is involved. My best advice for those seeking a definition is to find some one really skilled in it and then make your own. Otherwise none of it will really make any sense.


(This skill may be developed effectively by hitting the heavy bag. That is how I learned it. I had no formal instruction. It helps to understand some basics, but the learning is in the doing. All it takes is doing it over and over again.)

if you had no formal instruction then how do you know it’s the same skill.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

if you had no formal instruction then how do you know it’s the same skill.

Maximum results, minimum effort.. comparing results/effects to those demonstrated by "masters".. but, in the big picture, it is desirable to obtain some level of validation from a recognized player, someone that can demonstrate the skills you wish to emulate.. remember, there was no comparisons for the originators, they figured it out on their own.. that skill is not lost in antiquity, we can move further and deeper into the Internal Arts.. unless, we are confined by "tradition"..

Be well...

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8


it takes a lot of effort to reach a point where no effort is used. my point was in order to know if one is speaking of the same things one must first seek out someone who has the skill one is seeking. Translate some of what Master Wang, says and some of the others. They all say and demonstrate the same types of skills. Having felt such skill I can say that when they, or he speaks of not using force, its very literal. In part of the clip he speaks of attacking or hitting the persons sprit. Over and over again he talks of do not use force, this is not taiji. To do some of the things that they can one must have a different frame work. One that is called internal. Find some one who can do the same things or working with the same ideas then decide.

[Scott R. Brown]

(This skill may be developed effectively by hitting the heavy bag. That is how I learned it. I had no formal instruction. It helps to understand some basics, but the learning is in the doing. All it takes is doing it over and over again.)

if you had no formal instruction then how do you know it’s the same skill.

The same way the original innovators identified and used the skill in the first place. You can feel it!

I started out with a sense of what I was trying to accomplish. Then I practiced and innovated and experimented and I learned. Concerning this skill, it is my contention that if your mind is in the right place your body will guide you to the proper actions. If you know how to sense your body then you can feel it when it occurs. Of course in this circumstance it requires a specific frame of mind to begin with, so one must understand that from the beginning or they would only likely discover the proper frame of mind accidentally by stumbling upon it. Since I knew what I was looking for it was not that difficult. But it was not something I worked out in months, it did take some period of time. I don’t actually remember how long, but it probably would not be inaccurate to consider it was years. It isn’t like I kept a diary, LOL!

If you know what you are looking for, you practice a lot, and think about the results of your practice you can learn almost anything. I know it is fashionable to consider everything must be learned from an instructor, but this is not so. At some point in the past individuals perceived principles never before considered, applied them and then taught what they discovered to others. There was a first person in the chain somewhere. If it occurred once, which we know it did or we would not be learning the principles now, it may happen many more times. It is best not to limit what we consider possible, and to not project our limitations onto others. Just because I cannot do something does not mean you cannot do it. Just because I cannot understand something does not mean you cannot understand it.

Tai Chi principles are universal. They do not belong only to one culture, one tradition, or one style of MA. All one need do is contemplate the principles and the principles will be eventually understood independently of instruction. It would likely be more difficult to occur for someone with no knowledge or experience in the field of study in question, but I would try not to place that limitation on another person. It is not my place to tell someone they cannot do something just because I cannot or everyone else I know cannot.

The principles of Tai Chi are based upon the principles of Tao. Tao is the root from which Tai Chi springs. Because I am a long time student of Tao, over 30 years, I understand many of its principles, therefore I understand the principles of Tai Chi. If you understand the root, you will understand all that springs from that root. This itself is Taoist teaching.

[Scott R. Brown]

hi bamboo_leaf,

While your last post has much truth in it. I do not accept your artificial limitations. I would agree it is benefical to have instruction, I do not accept it as necessary.

Having said that I think perhaps there may be some misunderstanding. I am not talking about the force generated during push hands. That is primarily state of mind meeting biomechanics as well, but that is slightly different than what I am talking about when striking.

I am able to manifest some of the force you are speaking about during push hands having no formal instruction, but I must admit my skill is inadequate. This is due to lack of opportunity to practice with other knowledgable people however, not because I do not understand the force. It is not something I aspire to have skill in to the point I am willing go out and find others to play with. I have other goals at this time.

[Fu-Pow]

Tai Chi principles are universal. They do not belong only to one culture, one tradition, or one style of MA. All one need do is contemplate the principles and the principles will be eventually understood independently of instruction. It would likely be more difficult to occur for someone with no knowledge or experience in the field of study in question, but I would try not to place that limitation on another person. It is not my place to tell someone they cannot do something just because I cannot or everyone else I know cannot.

The principles of Tai Chi are based upon the principles of Tao. Tao is the root from which Tai Chi springs. Because I am a long time student of Tao, over 30 years, I understand many of its principles, therefore I understand the principles of Tai Chi. If you understand the root, you will understand all that springs from that root. This itself is Taoist teaching.

If you understand Taiji it does not mean you understand Taiji Quan.

[Fu-Pow]

I am able to manifest some of the force you are speaking about during push hands having no formal instruction, but I must admit my skill is inadequate. This is due to lack of opportunity to practice with other knowledgable people however, not because I do not understand the force. It is not something I aspire to have skill in to the point I am willing go out and find others to play with. I have other goals at this time.

It's funny that you say that your skill level is inadequate and yet you feel confident enough to give people practicing IMA training advice...like for example...lifting weights.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks Faruq,

Ill check them out after work!


Would this be something of internal strength, my wun yuen sifu is old he is thinish, not that strong muscular like to lift heavy objects but can hit tremendously hard that f@cks you up inside?> Before he learnt his LHBF and wun yuen he was a CLF masters that used alot of external training of rings etc maybe its all part of his internal force now. He also says hold no tension and you will hit hard!!!

Now, in old china alot of masters or people doing kung fu also did hard labour, worked in fields and did some real heavy work this could be a sort of external training regardless of martial arts??!

Scott, dr John, Taiji Bob...Guys any comments???

Garry

Eventually, everything you do will be come an extension of your internal practice, including hard labor.

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXO...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc31A...elated&search=

Nice clip of what internal skill would look like from the outside.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The same way the original innovators identified and used the skill in the first place. You can feel it!)

but you would still need someone to validate it, if your using the word internal as I did earlier in this thread,. If not then it really doesn’t apply and you might as you stated view it as a limitation. For me it’s the definition that I work with and look for in others work and skill sets. Its also what is used to judge my work by others using the same ideas and by those that i meet. One must be very clear allowing this celerity to manifest in their work. Otherwise thinking you have some something may not be the same as actually having it.

Many people feel they have achieved what fansong means for example (loosened body, or relaxed) when in actully they have not to the degree that is needed to really make many of things they see work.

(If you know what you are looking for, you practice a lot, and think about the results of your practice you can learn almost anything. I know it is fashionable to consider everything must be learned from an instructor, but this is not so. At some point in the past individuals perceived principles never before considered, applied them and then taught what they discovered to others. There was a first person in the chain somewhere.)

but it would still be very rudimentary, just as the first persons would be compared to someone whos work was guided based on the experiences of others before. I would say start to be able to do some of the skill sets to the same degree the understanding will start to manifist one would then know.

Your writings and thoughts are very interesting as are many others, my responses are based out of respect for those thoughts sharing some of my own. just some time on the net.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi bamboo_leaf,

I partially agree with you.

When it comes to striking it does not require confirmation by another, but it does require something to actually strike, like a heavy bag or a partner. I have tested this skill against a partner. I did not mean to imply I have NEVER trained with others concerning these skills. When it comes to push hands one requires a partner, but if one knows what they are intending to feel and accomplish it is immaterial whether the other person exceeds your ability or not. I have engaged in push hands as well, I just do not do so now. I have used opportunities with partners to test my understanding.

Yes, I have admitted the quality of my push hands is inadequate due to my lack of training partners.

The first people who devised these techniques founded them on principles of Tao. You apply the principles to your body, its biomechanics and its momentum, and learn as you go. It isn’t that hard if you know what you are looking for. I should emphasize that I did not learn these skills in a vacuum. I did have and idea of what I was looking for and I do understand the basic principles. I am not saying I had NO MA experience and then one day decided to read a few books and SHAZAAM I figured it all out. I do not want to give the wrong impression here. Also, it is not that I have never trained in Tai Chi, it has been over 25 years though since I have participated in formal instruction. So I am not implying I figured it out out of thin air. I had an edge on the original innovators because I can draw on the information they have passed along.

Concerning push hands:

Push hands is effective within the context of its play. Change the context and its effectiveness is neutralized. A well experienced player may eventually formulate a response to an anticipated change in context and acquire the skills to accommodate and counter that context change. When this occurs one merely changes the context once again.

There is a training purpose for these context changes. It allows the student to gain greater understanding of where the power for the soft response that unseats your opponent is generated from. Following are a few things one may try in order to change the context and thus render the unseating force of their opponent neutral.

It is preferable to apply some of these context changes without the knowledge of your opponent. You may tell him you intend to change the context, but don’t tell him what they will be so he will be unprepared to counter them. It is actually best not to even tell him that you intend to change the context, but this may cause ill feelings with your training partners. No one likes to learn that they have spent hours training a skill that may be easily neutralized. These context changes are used to demonstrate that soft power is based upon biomechanics. If you take away your opponents base he loses his power.

1- Have one person stand on one foot while the other stands on both feet. The one legged man will not be able to withstand the unseating force of his opponent. This is the most basic method for learning that a solid base is the foundation of push hands and indeed all MA from striking to, throws to joint manipulation, etc. Your base is your strength. A solid base is the biomechanical edge. Your base is solid (centered), and his base is solid (centered), but his base is narrower than yours, therefore you have the biomechanical advantage. If internal power, expressed as Chi, was the basis of the force then it would work without a stable base. We need a stable base because the force is founded upon biomechanics.

2- Have your partner stand with right foot forward, then take a step to this right, your left, at an angle. You can stand anywhere to his outside from 5*-90*. He must twist outward towards his right in order to engage you. He is not allowed to move his feet. Your base is centered once again while his is not centered. He cannot generate any meaningful force from this position while from your stable and centered base may easily and repeatedly unseat him.

3- When training push hands from fixed stance merely step when you perceive the moment is right. You may also step to the side or jump back, whatever it takes to neutral the his force. Experiment and try all of these at different times. The power of his force is based upon the limitation of your stance. When you do not allow this limitation to occur you have broken his context and his force is effectively neutralized.

4- Break wrist or arm contact with one or both arms. To feel your center of balance most effectively your opponent must be in contact with you. You may change the context by breaking contact and not allowing him to the opportunity to sense your center.

5- Break the rhythm of the momentum of the arm circling. This occurs during push hands any way, but many students may not have identified that this is what occurs to assist them in neutralizing their opponent. When performed inadequately it places you in vulnerability as well and you may be easily unseated.

6- Apply a any other completely unanticipated technique change. The purpose here is to find a way to break the momentum by cheating, that is, breaking the rules of the push hands formula. This is what occurs with all of these anyway and it is the purpose of the exercises.

Changing context is nothing more than breaking the rules of engagement. Break the rules effectively and you have neutralized your opponent's attack or defense. With any practice routine we may become fixed into one specific manner of perceiving and executing our skills. We must learn to think outside the limitations of our skill set in order to defeat our opponent. You may encounter a problem if you spontaneously engage these context changes in your class. Partners do not appreciate being embarrassed and having their partner change the rules on them unexpectedly.

Here are a two stories that illustrate my point:

On one occasion in my Aikido class I was practicing with a particular partner. This person was generally a pain in the butt because he would not assist his fellows in learning the techniques. As I have said all techniques work according to a specific context. He did not know this principle, but he did know how to make it difficult for anyone to perform techniques on him. When first learning a skill or technique we must not be interfered with in order to learn the effective and proper body movements. This requires the assistance of a cooperative partner. Once our skill reaches a certain expertise various context changes may be applied in order to teach us flexibility in our response. This particular student was ego centered and his purpose was to not allow anyone to perform their technique properly. No one liked to partner with him for this reason. One day I got tired of his uncooperative attitude and during one of his context changes to neutralize my technique I changed his context and threw him down. He got embarrassed and upset because I he had intended to change my context, but I changed his. His comment was something like, “Hey, what’s the big idea!” I told him, “That is what you get if you are going to screw around! Don’t think that just because you can neutralize one technique you are not vulnerable to another.” He was spending his time in class changing the context of the techniques in order to mess with his partners and stroke his own ego, but when his own context was changed he didn’t like it himself, LOL! He expected a particular technique to be executed upon him, when he changed the context I merely changed his context and neutralized his attempt to neutralize me. He started to lighten up a lot after this episode.

Here is one more story. I had a student very long ago who is about 6’5”. He is so much taller than the other students that he would tower over them. When he would spar and his opponent would approach him, he would simply jump up in the air to become even taller and whack his opponent on the top of the skull. This was very frustrating for many of his partners because how can you learn to spar if you partner doesn’t even give you a chance? He mostly used this one technique over and over again. Of course the students, being students, didn’t know how to neutralize, change the context, of his form of attack. So one day I decided to spar with him. He was actually in the class before the one I taught so I normally did not have the opportunity to spar with him. Because I was an instructor I had the privilege of entering any class at any time. I asked him to spar with me. Since I knew his form of attack I merely drew his response by appearing to enter his attack zone. As soon as he jumped in the air, I ducked down and quickly moved his legs out from under him. He ended up in an unceremonious heap on the floor, LOL! He was very embarrassed and upset, remember I said your partner won’t like it if you spontaneously change his context, LOL! He calmed down quite a bit after that; at least for awhile. He was another student thatlet his ego get carried away in class so I had a few opportunities to cut him down to size. He is an instructor now and the last time I saw one of his classes he had returned to his old manner of sparring with his students. Oh Well! Some people never learn, LOL!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I'm hoping someone can give me a good definition of internal strength v.s. external strength.)

my own short way would be that things working directly against the body are external, things that work against the mind are internal. As an example you can trip a person with your leg, or you can make them trip by leading them past their own balance point. How each is done is dependent on what is being affected directly.

Different arts function on different or varying levels of this. This would be my definition others may have different ones. The point that I was trying to make is that for the definition really to make any sense you really need to experience it, then chose one that best fits in with your own experiences.

Hi Scott,

Nice story and many interesting points made .

[imperialtaichi]

Hi, I am quoting myself from another thread, I think it applies here:

Hello Scott,

I know exactly what you mean. And I see it happening all the time. That is why I always warn my students and myself not to fall into such trap.

However, I still believe in internal energy and Qi; Why? Because I see it as a way of explaning phenomenons. Just as a model to explain the world, no more and no less to the way contemporary science constructing theories and models to describe and predict phenomenons in the physical world. If it works, I'll use it.

For example, one of my students (a medical doctor) reckons that all these Yi Qi projections works by influencing the way we move our bodies very subtley. Which, I do not argue with. When he tries to move his body the same way without using the Yi Qi methods, it just does not work. His conclusion is that the Yi Qi projections causes the neuromuscular system to behave a certain way, which we cannot consciousely control. So even though he does not believe in Qi, his moves with the methods of Yi Qi.

For me, if it works, that's all I care about.

Cheers,
John

My point is, without being to philosophical, there is no way we can garaunteer what we are seeing is the ultimate truth anyway. We can measure the observable effect, then derive models to explain and predict it, that's all. To me, I follow the Yi Qi school because it works for me and gives me the desired result. I also respect the biomechanic school because it too can also give rise to predictable results, although I do not follow and practice in such a way. As long as people continue to practice TCC, the two school of thoughts will continue to battle each other AND supplement each other, much like the Yin Yang sign.

Cheers,
John