ATTN Marcus. Qs on circle drill.

[Mr Punch]

On the other thread you posted this clip. Nice clips: looks like good work.

We did this kind of thing a lot too and I've done it in other MA.

Is this a beginners level one? When we did it we did a number of different levels:

1) Like your clip, one at a time in order, waiting till the last one has finished (like a fast san sao)

2) and then we worked it up to the sifu shouting out the number of the attacker (varying it so they were attacking from the left, or behind, then the front etc) so the defender had a split second to turn and adjust to the angle of attack.

3) A later version is calling the numbers and limiting the delay between each one to two seconds, so sometimes, if the defender hadn't 'finished off' the one guy the next guy was on the way in.

4) Calling numbers but the only the attackers know what number they are and they mill around the target.

5) All of them coming straight in at once: defender always gets tagged! He also has to find his way out of the circle ASAP and think about positioning some of the attackers in front of others.

We also did the same drill (all in at once) with the defender only being allowed to use footwork. The only handwork allowed was moving from wu to man or back so no strikes and no tans/paks etc. This is a very effective drill for checking your structure at speed: if you want to/can you make contact with your shoulders/knees/shins/elbows, to try and take their balance (cut straight through them whilst retaining your structure) but no striking. It also really encourages you to stick with your whole body to their centre which is invlauable in cutting the angles (against one) and gaining a positional advantage (against multiple attackers). Anybody else try that?

Also, you say on your clip your guys are using nonWC strikes against the defender, but they're very slow and mostly very unprotected in their centres (not so much techs as wild slow swings!). Do you ever do it at full speed?

[Mr Punch]

ttt

doesn't look like Marcus has been in for a while.

Anyone else do any circle drills or milling stuff?

[k gledhill]

I have 2 guys spar/ fight at the end of class and 'sometimes' tell a 3rd ' quietly ' to join in and help attack a certain student without the 2 guys knowing whats going on...it helps from a scenario level of not knowing your attackers and simply dealing with the unprovoked 'milling' which is common in fights i have been involved with....guys will just join in who may know the guy fighting you but you dont know them until they are in your face swinging... from this milling one can shout out for x & y to attack z and from the given positons flow with their positions , changing randomly or even adding a 4th- 5th etc....I join in too grabbing wrists and rushing people just to add unorthodox vt things to the mix ... I also see this at our gym being done by the 'Systema' group, a russian system of attribute training....they do this a lot, group roughhousing, rolling with the flow at random.

[marcus_pasram]

Hello,

Sorry for the delayed response. Free time for harder and harder to come by. You seem experienced in this kind of training. As with all training, you start of slow, and progress to higher levels as you get better.

<...snip >

We did this kind of thing a lot too and I've done it in other MA.

The more I learn and the more I experience, I believe Fighting looks like Fighting, and there's a large amount of overlap in different styles of training. It all has to be applied.

Is this a beginners level one? When we did it we did a number of different levels:

Yes, this is a beginner's level. The students were asked to slow it down for the audience's benefit IMO, the basic one is the hardest in the beginning. You learn to remain calm and relaxed to see what is comming sitting in the YJYKM to face your opponent and study their body language as they attack. Everyone gets excited and tense up. Remembering to be alert for the next attacker and pull-away from and cover yourself against him is a good habit to develop. If you review the clip, you'll see it.

The other variations you described except the all at once mugging/milling are familiar. I'm sure strategies exists for increasing your odds against multiple attachers, but I personally believe a group of well coordinated attackers can over come a single person easily. Thats a question I'll have to ask my SiFu one day.

< snip >
Also, you say on your clip your guys are using nonWC strikes against the defender, but they're very slow and mostly very unprotected in their centres (not so much techs as wild slow swings!). Do you ever do it at full speed?

Please keep in mind that everyone in a class of 20+ students have to perform the techniques over and over with 2-3 partners, then the class winds down with everyone getting a turn to practice in the circle. Full speed and accuracy of the attackers diminish over time. Slow wild swings start out as fast, accurate and hard wide swings until the pain from the counter sinks in. Thats one of the reasons we encourage students to pad up, multiple times. Repitition is literally a pain.

My SiFu had lots of experience training and exchanging knowledge with other martial artists, so he's able to explain how different styles attack. One of the attacks we practice against is the Chop Cheau, followed by a swing. This, I was told is from another Shaolin Branch. That being said, we'll never be as good at performing another martial art as a practitioner of that art - but we try for our training. We also have friends with other styles and that presents great opportunities for experimentation.

Take care,

[Mr Punch]

The other variations you described except the all at once mugging/milling are familiar. I'm sure strategies exists for increasing your odds against multiple attachers, but I personally believe a group of well coordinated attackers can over come a single person easily. Thats a question I'll have to ask my SiFu one day.

Of course, you'll get nailed. It's a drill.

The basic strategy is to get out ASAP. I have found a lot of MAists (as I've done this drill in karate, wing chun, jkd, lau gar and aikido) don't know how to do this!

One time I was being mugged (15 years ago, just after I started MA and a world away) and I had enough time to deliberate on my chances of breaking this guy's arm, but not enough confidence to try it (his arm was in a textbook position for that armbar) and afterwards I realised I could have easily just run away!

Ego and overconfidence can be killers.

In wing chun many people are convinced if they keep going in they'll overcome... without realising that if the guy is really big and strong, on drugs or in a gang, it'll just get their heads stomped.

Some of the reasons for the multiple attacker drill like that is to get you used to getting through the group ASAP, not being a purist and trying to 'finish' everyone, train your peripheral awareness, keep your balance through being jostled, pushed, hit and kicked from all angles, keep your cool... etc.

Tcehnically, you usually rely on big steps or lots of small ones, a lot of fast huen bo (helps if you train this) and a lot of short sharp ankle kicks and sweeps, shoulders, elbows, heads and short displacing 'defences' like pak. One of the great things is becoming aware that your centreline is the centre from any angle, so you don't have to rely on squared off stance BS (or indeed any set stance), and trying to issue power to any direction and through contact from any direction.

It's good, but everyone needs protection, you'll still get hurt and it's exhausting!

Please keep in mind that everyone in a class of 20+ students have to perform the techniques over and over with 2-3 partners, then the class winds down with everyone getting a turn to practice in the circle. Full speed and accuracy of the attackers diminish over time. Slow wild swings start out as fast, accurate and hard wide swings until the pain from the counter sinks in. Thats one of the reasons we encourage students to pad up, multiple times. Repitition is literally a pain.

I got you! It's funny when we start san sao really on the ball, really evil strikes right on target and after a couple of hard bashes with bony forearms our strikes start to wander and lack in enthusiasm a bit!

One of the attacks we practice against is the Chop Cheau, followed by a swing. This, I was told is from another Shaolin Branch.

Sounds familiar, whats chop cheau (choi?) again?

[Mr Punch]

I also see this at our gym being done by the 'Systema' group, a russian system of attribute training....they do this a lot, group roughhousing, rolling with the flow at random.

Yeah man, those Systema nutters love it! You ever join them?

[couch]

Yeah man, those Systema nutters love it! You ever join them?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eak-m2iwI...elated&search=

Join this? Hmm...something to think about...that's for sure.