Tom Bisio info

[Three Harmonies]

Trust me I know the info will be great, especially since their is little (read: anything) of quality regarding Tui Na in English. Just curious of the motivation to price the book so darn high!?!? I will end up getting it someday.
Jake

[lhommedieu]

...curious of the motivation to price the book so darn high!?!?...

Well, quality. Also I think that if you spend years and years perfecting something and you decide to market it to the public the cost will be high...

Anyone look at the cost of the Silver and Gold books lately? Deadman? Bensky and Gamble? I think that in its own way Zheng Gu Tui Na will fill a niche and just outshine everything else to which you could compare it.

Since you're out in Seatle have you had a chance to catch either Tom or Frank at Dan Bensky's school?

Best,

Steve

[TenTigers]

but if you take the courses, the book is free, right? RIGHT?
ok, a discount? That would be good...maybe a student discount...?

[lhommedieu]

No discount I'm afraid...

I'm picking up a copy on Friday and will write a review before the book is available on the internet next week.

Rick, it was nice to meet you at the Suigetsu Camp. Maybe I'll get a chance to teach some of the basic back sequence at the camp next year...

Best,

Steve

[Three Harmonies]

Steve
No I have not. I cannot afford $500 plus for a weekend. Again it is too much for my budget (especially living in this city). I tried to last March, but I found out about it about 3 weeks prior, and could not get the cash flow.
Someday when I get rich I am all over it. Until then........ I have to live vicariously(?) through you guys
Cheers
Jake

[lhommedieu]

Yeah - I understand that finances can be tough...

The book's a good start though. If you're interested in this area it's $90 well spent. I wasn't able to get it this weekend but will buy it through the internet on Wednesday if it's available then.

Best,

Steve

[TenTigers]

Hi Steve, always a pleasure. I am hoping to start Tom's courses this year.
Three Harmonies-500. might seem steep for "just a weekend" but Tom's classes are very intensive. From what I heard from people who took the courses, you get alot more than what you pay for in terms of wealth of knowledge and hands on experience. I took his Martial Arts injury class and I took enough notes to write a textbook! So much practical information, I'm still trying to absorb it. Trust me, it's money well spent.
(I should get a kick-back for promoting his classes!)

[Three Harmonies]

I surely do not want to come across as if I do not think Mr. Bisio's stuff is top notch. I certainly DO think he is a great practitioner, and very talented. I am merely stating I cannot afford such workshops, I do not fit into that social/financial bracket.
I will get the book when I have some extra cash, for sure.
Cheers
Jake

[The Therapist]

Just a bit about the book, the new Tui Na book Tom and Frank wrote.

This book is a wealth of information if you are interested in doing tui na, even with friends and family. The picture quality and the descriptions are easy to follow. I see some posts regarding the high price but this book is textbook quality. It will be used in acupuncture schools that have this curriculum as part of the program. It is hardback with glossy pages.

The book entails all qi gong taught in the classes also.

I am taking the classes, soon off to take Level 3 of the Tui Na and yes I just bought the book last visit to NYC. In class we get great notes so the main reason for me to buy the book was for the qi gong instruction. That and to support my teachers.

[lhommedieu]

Just got the book yesterday and spent the morning reading the introduction and perusing the rest of the chapters.

It's extraordinarily good. I've taken all four Zheng Gu Tui Na levels from Frank and Tom (and have been a student of Tom's for several years now) - and I still found myself nodding my head and saying to myself, "Oh - now I understand!"

Of course, no book about Tui Na will ever be a substitute for actually practicing Tui Na; this book will merely help deepen your intellectual understanding of your own practice. But that's a pretty big "merely": I'm confident that Zheng Gu Tui Na will be the standard by which all Tui Na books will be judged, and frankly, can't imagine it ever being surpassed. Time will tell.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[TenTigers]

out of curiosity-I heard someone (forgot who) say that once the courses are completed, you can actually "hang a shingle out" and open up a tui-na "practice." Is this true? What courses are required, and what are the NY state requirements, or restrictions? (I'm taking the courses anyway, as I feel that anyone teaching TCMA should have a working knowledge of tui-na and dit-dar, but it's always good to supplement a school's income)

[cjurakpt]

out of curiosity-I heard someone (forgot who) say that once the courses are completed, you can actually "hang a shingle out" and open up a tui-na "practice." Is this true? What courses are required, and what are the NY state requirements, or restrictions? (I'm taking the courses anyway, as I feel that anyone teaching TCMA should have a working knowledge of tui-na and dit-dar, but it's always good to supplement a school's income)

that's simple Rik - there is no legal barrier to your ofering "tui na" or "bodywork" services in NYS; what you are restricted from is using the terms "massage", "mobilisation" or "manipulation" unless they are within one's scope of practice as a licensed health care professional; but otherwise you are actually free to go ahead and "treat" anyone whom you like

from an ethical perspective, however, I find there to be a multitude of problems with anyone taking a few hundred hours of instruction in a single modality and then thinking that it's ok to "hang out a shingle" for their services (and I am not implying that you personally think this is ok - I'm speaking in general); this would include, but is not limited to, the following reasons:

• no training in professional issues: practice ethics, guidlines, appropriate boundaries, how to do a proper intake / ask the right questions the right way, how to be actively neutral when listening to tales of woe (important for both patient and you) and other psychosocial issues, etc.; no training on how to "tough it out" as a practitioner when you are stuck with a difficult patient;

• no supervised training in clinical setting: all licensed professionals have undergone some sort of supervised clinical practice; this aspect is critical - it sparates the wheat from the chaff in a big way...

• patients treated by an unlicensed individual have no form of recourse should something go wrong, either in terms of the actual treatment (injury, worsening of original condition) or the action of the "practitioner" (e.g. - innapropriate comments / onduct / advice); they can't reort you to a disciplinary board, they can't sue you for malpractice, etc.; even if they filed a civil suit, given the situation it would be difficult to prove incompetance on the practitioner's part as long as they never advertised themselves as being something they are not...

• no training in diferential diagnosis, not so much to actually treat something, but to know when they need to refer someone out or get them to an ER immediately

• no one treats in isolation - you are always part of a team - being an unlicensed individual limits your ability to communicate and share information with others on that team

anyway, I think you get my point: there is no legal barrier, but IMHO I think it's a really bad idea otherwise; what I think is a great idea is, if you are serious about it, to go to school for the 18 months it would take you to become a Licensed Massage Therapist (LMT), which would satisfy all of the above issues, with the exception of being able to "mobilize" (oscillate a joint specificaly) and "manipulate" (thrust the joint); to do those you'd have to get a PT or DC license (I don't know if L.Ac's can do manips legally, but I'd imagine that they can do mobs)

anyway, that's my understanding of it - others may have more updated info and can correct me as they see fit; I would also talk to l'hommedieu about it, he may have insights I don't; and if you would like to discuss the matter in more detail, I am happy to do so

[lhommedieu]

Rik,

cjurakpt makes some good points here. I've also thought long and hard about the issues he raises, and I also believe that there are important pros and cons to be considered if you decide to treat people outside the legal and ethical umbrella that attending LMT school will provide. For the record, I also think it's a great idea to attend a massage school as it will only prepare you to better utilize the skills that you have learned. More about that below (I'll address cjurakpt's points one by one, as I think they provide an excellent scaffolding for discussion).

On the other hand, I have a strong anti-establishment streak and can appreciate the reasons why someone may choose not to go the LMT route. I am reminded of the "how do you like them apples?" scene in the movie "Good Will Hunting" wherein Matt Damon's character dresses down the snotty grad student who has attempted to humiliate his working-class friend in the bar by demonstrating his superior "intelligence." Damon's character engages the grad student in an impromptou debate about 19th century economics and history and procedes to not only anticipate but throroughly dismantle each and every argument the grad student could have offered (if he could get a word in edgewise) by taking each one to the next logical level, and then to the level after that, etc. After demonstrating his complete and superior grasp of the subject matter, Will then says something like, "Now, don't you feel terrible? You've spent thousands of dollars getting a (mediocre) graduate school education, and all you've needed all along was this free library card."

It's an entertaining scene and has philosophical merit. It also reminded me, when I first saw it, that one of the best professors that I had in college, a published scholar highly respected for his expertise in Medieval literature and a revered teacher (over 30 years at the same institution) never bothered to go beyond his B.A. degree. He was listed as merely "instructor" in the school's curriculum guide, but apparently this didn't seem to bother him or the thousands of students he taught throughout the years.

Of course, practicing bodywork carries different responsibilites than scholarship. Add to this the fact that both Will Hunting and the professor that I describe above were both able to florish within the walls of an institution that afforded them support and protection despite their maverick status. To carry the issue further, martial arts schools have for thousands of years offered bodywork therapies as part of their curriculum, and many schools have long traditions that require expertise in bodywork therapies if students are to become teachers. This is however an apprenticeship model of dozens of years within a traditional culture that allows for plenty of time to address the ethical caveats mentioned above, with strong mentorship on a constant basis, and a "client" pool that is much more tolerant of mistakes than the general public.

In your particular case you have the advantage of already teaching in this kind of culture, and I gather from some of your posts on forum that your teacher may be part of a similar tradition. I would suggest to any martial arts teacher that that if you (rhetorically) want to practice bodywork you start within the context of treating martial arts students on a pro bono basis, and that if you wanted to charge for your services you'd do so only after getting a lot of practice in this manner (it certainly won't hurt your student attendence base). In addition, some might think that providing bodywork to students who are injured in the course of practice are just be part and parcel of the services that the teacher provides for his or her students. On the other hand, "getting the paper so I can practice legally" certainly has its practical merits, in addition to addressing the concerns described above.

That being said, let's move on to cjurakpt's points. I list them mostly to reiterate their good sense:

• no training in professional issues: practice ethics, guidlines, appropriate boundaries, how to do a proper intake / ask the right questions the right way, how to be actively neutral when listening to tales of woe (important for both patient and you) and other psychosocial issues, etc.; no training on how to "tough it out" as a practitioner when you are stuck with a difficult patient;

This is certainly true. LMT schools at least introduce the issue and provide resources for further study of which you may not be aware.

• no supervised training in clinical setting: all licensed professionals have undergone some sort of supervised clinical practice; this aspect is critical - it sparates the wheat from the chaff in a big way...

True again. However in your case the wheat may have already been separated from the chaff...

• patients treated by an unlicensed individual have no form of recourse should something go wrong, either in terms of the actual treatment (injury, worsening of original condition) or the action of the "practitioner" (e.g. - innapropriate comments / onduct / advice); they can't reort you to a disciplinary board, they can't sue you for malpractice, etc.; even if they filed a civil suit, given the situation it would be difficult to prove incompetance on the practitioner's part as long as they never advertised themselves as being something they are not...

I think that there is a lot to consider here. Add to this the fact that (in the context of treating students) there are transference issues from student to teacher, etc., and it gets even more complicated. On the other hand, it's certainly arguable that
you've assumed an ethical responsibility qua martial arts teacher and that it carries over to any bodywork you decide to practice. Re. the issue of civil suits I should think that you are somewhat vulnerable if you practice bodywork in the context of "martial arts" and something goes wrong: i.e. "I wanted to learn martial arts and I got this cracked rib because I agreed to let my teacher practice "bodywork" on me," etc. However I think that the risk is mitigated by the kind of student you are treating, and certainly an explantation of potential risk to the student (however unlikely) goes a long way of covering you both here. Most bodyworkers that I have learned from have admitted to making "mistakes" along the way to becoming experts in their fields; at issue is the strength of their training to begin with and their abililty to assume responsibility for their mistakes and rectify them.

• no training in diferential diagnosis, not so much to actually treat something, but to know when they need to refer someone out or get them to an ER immediately

Essential. As an example, I'm treating someone currently who tore his biceps tendon completely off his radius. My advice, on intitial consultation, was that he get an MRI, i.e., there was really nothing I could do for him at that point besides knock down the inflamation and swelling. After his MRI results came in (the next day) he asked be what to do next (I advised surgery). The end result is that he got surgery for his injury within days of it happening (when it was the optimal time to get it), and I was able to start treating him with herbs and acupuncture. Some three months later he is well on the road to recovery.

That's a relatively superficial example. Your main concerns here, as I sure you are aware, are to rule out potential issues like heart attack, cancer, stroke, etc.

• no one treats in isolation - you are always part of a team - being an unlicensed individual limits your ability to communicate and share information with others on that team

True enough - although your "team" (health providers that you know) may in fact be extensive enough to provide your clients with adequate support if you think that bodywork may not be the complete answer.

***

with the exception of being able to "mobilize" (oscillate a joint specificaly) and "manipulate" (thrust the joint); to do those you'd have to get a PT or DC license (I don't know if L.Ac's can do manips legally, but I'd imagine that they can do mobs)

"Zheng Gu" (correct bone) is conceived as occuring within the scope and practice of Tui Na; I think a strong case can and should be made for not claiming to do Chiropractic "manipulations" and "mobilizations" insofar as we don't go to Chiropractic school and learn their methods. In contrast, furthermore, Zheng Gu always involves extensive soft tissue work beforehand, and there is a separate theoretical context for performing these techniques. All the Zheng Gu that I have learned always involves taking the joint along its natural lines of movement.

Although it may be argued that this is merely skirting the issue, I think that there are important reasons for skirting it (!) - not the least of which is the fact that Zheng Gu existed for thousands of years before the advent of Chiropractic. Why get mired down in a non-issue IMHO?

***

Thanks for acting as a sounding board for the above considerations. I can't pretend to present a complete answer to your question, but at least it should provide a start.

Best,

Steve

[herb ox]

While both cjurakpt and l'hommedieu both have very valid and well thought out arguments, I must also bring another aspect to the table.

Ethical and legal issues aside, the power of health-care in our country has been taken from our hands over the years and transferred to high-priced 'specialists'. Many of the techniques used in tuina, along with the folk remedies like cupping, guasha and herbs have been practiced by lay-folk for centuries in rural areas of Asia. The arguments presented previously both revolve around determining whether or not you are 'special' enough to be a 'specialist'. However, don't let these things scare you away from learning the techniques. Your motivation, however, is most important - do you wish to learn simply to make money or to serve humanity? Just food for thought (fuel for the fire?).

Anyways, I threw down my hundred bucks and now my Zheng Gu Tui Na textbook is on its way! I hope Tom and Frank give some west coast seminars that I can attend.

peace

herb ox

[TenTigers]

When I was with my ex, who inherited her dit-dar healing skills from her mother, we always treated our students gratis.The only charges were that they contribute to gauze,tape,liquor for jow on occaision,etc, as it always came out of pocket. I feel it is a natural extension of the "service" offered, for a Sifu to be able to heal his students.,(as well as himself) as it has always been done. Most of my Chinese Sifus practiced some form of dit-da, and I feel it should go hand in hand with trainng Gung-Fu. Many techniques have been lost due to recent generations of students not being trainined in the healing aspects of TCMA.