TUF Season 4 question

[Yao Sing]

So, on season 4 of TUF when they brought Chuck Lidell in what was that whipping punch he was showing them?

We all know that CMA is useless in the ring so it couldn't have been a cop choy or sow choy right?

[Mook Jong]

So, on season 4 of TUF when they brought Chuck Lidell in what was that whipping punch he was showing them?

We all know that CMA is useless in the ring so it couldn't have been a cop choy or sow choy right?

It looked like a gauch (sp) choy. It is thrown from the shoulder in a downward arc across the body and hits with the top of the fist near the thumb. The thumb can be placed on top to aim for the jaw to cause more damage.

[Charles T Rose]

It is also similar to the Russian boxing technique known as casting.

[SevenStar]

So, on season 4 of TUF when they brought Chuck Lidell in what was that whipping punch he was showing them?

We all know that CMA is useless in the ring so it couldn't have been a cop choy or sow choy right?

considering that he doesn't train CLF, I can guarantee you that it was none of the above techniques. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a similar one found in other styles. It sounds like you are describing the way some people throw an overhand.

that said, it's the training methods seen in much CMA that prompt people to say it's useless, not it's techniques. A punch is a punch.

[SiuHung]

considering that he doesn't train CLF, I can guarantee you that it was none of the above techniques. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a similar one found in other styles. It sounds like you are describing the way some people throw an overhand.

that said, it's the training methods seen in much CMA that prompt people to say it's useless, not it's techniques. A punch is a punch.

I don't get it. If a CMA person uses a punch and it's "real close" to what Chuck Liddel uses, it still sucks because of how they train? So hitting pads, timing drills, and sparring sucks because it's CMA? This is really confusing.

[Mook Jong]

I'm with sihung, if i throw the punch basically tthe same and work on it with pads and timing drills, what difference does it make if i'm a CMA fighter or an MMA fighter? Does CMA by default make it worse training? If that's what you think, i say go and train with a shaolin warrior-monk for a year.

[David Jamieson]

cma training methods suck?

which ones?

weak curriculums are a problem, not the methods.
many methods are exactly the same.

plus, there is no denying that mma type training is setup from the outset to attract more aggresive type people who know that there will be full contact this and that in a relatively short term.

most people in society ain't into that because they don't have that dive but, they still want to learn a martial art. Over time, intention is developed through the methods of cma that will bring about an open door to the fighting spirit that is within the student if it needs to be drawn on. sometimes they win, sometimes they lose.

all martial arts is not mere competitive fighting. there is a lot of it that has little to do with competitiveness. The methods are pretty sound. Please list those methods that are not. And if you choose to state that forms are useless, please denote why exactly you might think they are useless.

otherwise there is sparring, bag work, mitts work etc etc. and even mma has compliant patrner drills when learning a technique's application.

i think a lot of people think and say a lot of things, but not many people get right to it and thoroughly demonstrate what is lacking. Most time that the point is attempted to be proven, the example used is sub par even in mediochre practitioners views.

anyway, feel free to make the list of ineffective tcma training methods. I only have one on my list about why mma training is not always as good.

a) incidence of injury that prohibits optimum training is higher due to to much emphasis placed on contact fighting.

go!

[Knifefighter]

cma training methods suck?
which ones?

1- Ones that instill thinking along lines like this:

The effectiveness of TCMA training methods is proven. Much of it isn't useful for the ring since you wear gloves. It’s useful for the streets though. In the ring, what good are conditioned hands if you can’t use many of the techniques they were conditioned for (such as fu jow)?

2- Forms, because they have nothing to do with fighting.

3- All the schools that do no sparring.

4- All the schools that do "sparring" with no gear. Sparring with no gear means that you can't go hard enough to get halfway decent.

5- All the practitioners that never spar hard enough to incur injuries. Injuries come with the territory of becomming a good fighter.

6- Ineffective techniques such as backfists that are included in forms and drills but hardly ever actually work against skilled oppoents.

7- Instructors who never fight or spar full force, but have "reputations" of being good, most of whom have never beaten a skilled opponent in their lives.

8- The same instructors who make brainwashed students believe that ineffective techniques are useful by demonstrating them at high force on the students while the students are complying.

[Mr Punch]

I don't get it. If a CMA person uses a punch and it's "real close" to what Chuck Liddel uses, it still sucks because of how they train? So hitting pads, timing drills, and sparring sucks because it's CMA? This is really confusing.

Obviously Seven is not referring to or addressing the people who do this.

Do we have to go through this again?

[BruceSteveRoy]

i don't think seven* is saying the methods suck. he said that (other) people say they suck. and its true. ppl who are just looking in and not actually doing it often dont get it. they think its all for show. its not until ppl actually go in and train that they realize the value and effectiveness of the training in TCMA.

[SiuHung]

Obviously Seven is not referring to or addressing the people who do this.

Do we have to go through this again?

No, there's no point in rehashing the same debate that occurs over and over again. I get the message...there's a lot of CMA that trains poorly, or has completely omitted the martial aspects and that does suck (i.m.o.). But not everyone, and lets not forget that there's crappy mma training too...A thing that will become more and more evident over the next few years as people attempt to cash in on it.

A while back, I purchased the DVD's for the first season of TUF. On the last one, the coaches go over a few of thier favorite techniques. Chuck Liddel shows his whipping overhand. It looked just like a "cup choi" to me, common in many Southern systems. It made me smile to see a good 'ol CMA technique on the list of Chuck's bread and butter moves.

[David Jamieson]

Chuck's a kempo guy as well as all else and naturally has copped some moves outta that to use on the circuit. Kempo borrows heavily from cma.

so , it's chuck's, but the move is in cma.

It is not a traditional western boxing strike anymore than a whipping back hand is.

mma guys, at least the internet warrior types take real offense when you point out where cma has influenced an mma fighters attributes and techs for some reason. It's like they are desperate to be something different.

fighting is fighting. there's nothing in mma that you can't get anywhere else so long as there is an open format for that type of competition.

and yes, we will see a lot worse mma garbage coming around as time goes and people capitalize on all the kips and napoleons out there.

[Mr Punch]

Do we have to go through this again?

Cool. finally KFM forums have given me a concrete answer!

[SevenStar]

I don't get it. If a CMA person uses a punch and it's "real close" to what Chuck Liddel uses, it still sucks because of how they train? So hitting pads, timing drills, and sparring sucks because it's CMA? This is really confusing.

where did I say the punch sucked?? All I said was that it wasn't a sow choy.

[The Xia]

The effectiveness of TCMA training methods is proven. Much of it isn't useful for the ring since you wear gloves. It’s useful for the streets though. In the ring, what good are conditioned hands if you can’t use many of the techniques they were conditioned for (such as fu jow)?