TUF Season 4 question

[Merryprankster]

Well, yeah Coach Ross, hence the giant smiley face.

Incidentally, I learned the calculus lesson deep down. I was always very fast at arithmetic, so even if I didn't know how to do an algebra problem, I could interpolate over and over again to get the right answer, well within the confines of the test time limits. Same basic thing with trig - although the use of tables and calculators greatly aided that!

Can't do that in calculus since the problems involve continuous change....and since my algebra was weak, I had a REALLY hard time with that class - until my algebra finally caught up...

[David Jamieson]

pulling on your yum ging 12 hours a day may increase your grip strength ultimately, but is it efficient as a method of training?

You can get more, with less time invested, with something like a Hindu squat...

As for rooting, WRESTLE.... trying to develop rooting with horse stance is like holding a plate in both hands and "steering" it to learn to drive

to wrestle is to apply the root. and it's a good way to get the jins even more correct.

Dave, your analogy is not even relevant to stance training.

My personal view is it is simply a lack of patience. If you wrestle without foundation, you'll simply get pwned over and over again. hindu squats won't stop that, you have to train the entire base. Stance training provides that method of training.

But people can do and say as they please I suppose. i wonder how many critics of stance training actually do for real stance training or simply wrote it off because it hurts or is too much on the boring side of training. There is a lot of augmentation training that is boring, but it's necessary for the kungfu practitioner.

[Green Cloud]

Not at all. Just the BS, doesn't work, never actually done against halfway skilled resisting oppoents techniques and training methods. It just happens that 95% of KF is made up of the BS stuff.

As a matter of fact, I think San Shou is a great venue for KF fighters to showcase their skills. However, when you watch kung fu guys fighting in San Shou, notice how you will see almost nothing in terms of windmill punching and straght backfists. Those matches look pretty much like boxing and kickboxing with wrestling and judo throws... because that's what works- something that the 1% of kung fu guys that aqtually fight learn very quickly.

San Shou is based on CMA sport fighting and a lot of the tech. is in the forms like the majority of throwing and sweeping. As far as seeing fancy footwork and spin punching I've seen it done many times by more experienced fighters.

By adding rules and gloves and such the style has to be modified in the ring since most kung fu tech. employ open hands. Take Judo for instance it's just modified jiu jits and designned for sport.

Every style has its weakness take Gracie Jiu Jitsu, at one time peole thought it was the unbeatable system. Now we know it's not,,, without good stand up and ground fighting your gona loose.

Having an a one dimentional attidute about fighting hurt the Gracies in the end. My point being is that Kung Fu offers many avenues for enthusiast including the fancy dancy forms for peole that don't like to get there face bashed in.

Kung Fu also offers a fantastic arsenal of fighting like grappling, ground fighting, kicking, punching, and street defense.

In todays UFC mixed martial means what it means mixed all styles of fighting so to knock any one style just makes you sound like you have a closed mind.

I do Kung Fu because that's what I like to do end of story even if the Stuff didn't work who cares there is no argument that would convince me that I shoulnt do it.

It's simply my preference if I decided to do mixed MA I'd take what I know and adapt just like veryone else does in that sport.

Just a friendly reminder MMA is not the world

[cjurakpt]

some random thoughts regarding specificityof training:

it is commonly accepted in the filed of kinesiology that when you strengthen a muscle at a certain range of the joints over which it crosses, you will get "spill over" for about 20 to 30 degrees max in either direction; therefore, if you train isometrically, you have to do so at multiple ranges of the muscle in order to get the effect throughout the range (not saying anyting about the end ranges, where you are dealing active and passive insuficiency); therefore, isometrics at one point in the range do essentially nothing for the function of a muscle as it moves through the range; furthermore, if you train open chain (distal extremity moving) for skills that require closed hain recruitment (extremity fixed), you get pretty much no carry over and vice versa (same thing for concentric versus eccentric contractions); this also holds for dynamic / plyometirc versus static training; from that perspective, I would say that the contribution of stance training is essentially nil when it comes to actual fighting - in fact, it's the antithesis of it in every way

as far as training "in context": for a long time in the world of PT rehab, it was thought that the best way to achieve a complex, functional real-life skill, such as negotiating a crowded city street, was to break it down into the smallest, easiest component parts, master those and then reassemble them into the complete desired functional real life skill, which you would only spend time working on at the end of the course of rehab;

so, you would first work with them in a rehab gym, lifting weights (open chain, of course... ), do a bunch of essentially "abstract" balancing drills, and, of course, "perfect" their gate pattern, because this would all ultimately make it easier for them to do this

unfortunately, this does not really hold true, based on something called the contextual interference effect (CIE), which is the net of all variables present when performing a skill, both intrinsically in the body and extrinsically in the environment, and which has been investigated in great detail by motor learning theorists for some time now; the bottom line is that by altering the CIE, you can create a situation where a the requirements for a skill such as walking can be radically altered by the environment in which you do it, to the degree that it almost becomes two different skills

the take home message is that, if I train their system to account for the variables present in a rehab gym, when they get out on the street, the actual transfer of training may be zero, meaning not only do they have to learn an entirely new skill, but they may innapropriately rely on strategies acquired for optimal function in an entirely different context

that said, based on the evidence based research, I actually would spend a very short amount of time with apatient in a rehab gym, maybe just making sure that the person can actually walk, but then as soon as possible, I want to get them out onto a crowded street and work the majority of the time with them there, so that they have to deal with all the variables that will always be part of that skill; THEN, if I identified a specific detriment that they were unable to compensate for (e.g. - aweakness of a specific muscle) I would go back into the gym and specifically train that muscle in as close of a functional context as i could, and frequently referencing them back to the actual context we were ultimately training for...

so regardless of what you want to believe, if you are talking about fighting in a high-level competative venue, and to a large degree on the street (the exception here being that you have many more random variables occuring than in a sporting venue, ones that could either nulify even the most hands-on, live training, or on the flip side serve to actually save someone who has been doing something less than real), the variability of what you do is necessarily limited to high percentage techniques practiced in context - same as in any high-level venue, from chess, to golf, to modern warfare - it's because there is a constant adaptative response on the part of the adversary, nothing more or less...

I think that what happened in TCMA, is that because there was less frequent contact in the "old days" between styles in general due to the distance between geographical zones (people travelled far distances a lot less even 100 years ago than now), there was less interraction on a regular basis - so essentially, if you were the only gig in town, you could keep doing your thing because there was less chance to be called on it; that, and you could probably make a deal with the other local teachers not to go around breaking anyone else's rice bowl (no, THAT never happenend...), and so several styles could get perpetuated side by side without ewver really proving themselves against each other... in general, i think a lot of the "training" methods (specificaly forms) were utilized more as a way to make it easier for the instructor to teach large numbers of people at one time, or to keep newbies busy for 10 + years before you taught them the stuff that really worked, namely fighting with weapons...

just some thoughts...

[Green Cloud]

Ahh yea what ever my training bro Chris said oh by the whay could you PM me and translate some of that Toi sanese in laymans terms

[LeeCasebolt]

Take Judo for instance it's just modified jiu jits and designned for sport.

No, it's not.

[Green Cloud]

No, it's not.

Ookay then, I guess I should respond to your three word post

[The Xia]

You never gave any response to the fact that Kung Fu was used for survival. What about that do you dispute?

[Green Cloud]

Hey xia do you think you can dig some stuff up to support the historical fact that Judo is modified Jiu jits?? Just google proffesor Jigoro kano. I'm not sure if my spelling correct.

According to what I've read and what I was told by my Sensei when I trained in Judo The professor was concerned about all the joint locking being dangerous in so he modified his Jiu Jitsu and then later introduced it as a sport.

[The Xia]

Written by Phil Rasmussen
http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist4.htm

Around 1880 Kano started rethinking the jujitsu techniques he had learned. He saw that by combining the best techniques of various schools into one system he could create a physical education program that would embody mental and physical skill. In addition, he believed that the techniques could be practiced as a competitive sport if the more dangerous techniques were omitted.

So in 1882, having pulled from ancient jujitsu the best of its throws and grappling techniques, added some of his own, and removed such dangerous techniques as foot and hand strikes. Kano at the age of 22, presented his new sport--Judo. He called this sport Kodokan Judo. The term Kodokan breaks down into ko (lecture, study, method), do (way or path), and kan (hall or place). Thus it means "a place to study the way." Similarly Judo breaks down into ju (gentle) and do (way or path) or "the gentle way."

[Green Cloud]

Thanks Xia your so good at getting facts.

Leecasebolt do some research next time before you make such a claime

[Merryprankster]

Wow. That's a giant "sort of."

More precisely, what Kano wanted to build was a system that could be practiced at full speed. He eliminated potentially deadly and extremely injurious techniques on the grounds that those could not be practiced at full speed.

The Kodokan then challenged (and received challenges from) MANY jiujitsu ryus.

The Kodokan won almost all of them.

Kano certainly believed that competitive, full speed sparring and challenges had a place in the development of MA. But to flat out state that he wanted to develop a sport isn't precisely correct or true.

He wanted to avoid the paradox of "deadly" techniques - that you can't practice them full speed on a live resisting opponent. This certainly lends itself to sportive combat, which I won't deny, and which I think was certainly foreseeable. But I don't think Kano would have thought of it as a "sport," per se based on my understanding.

By way of example, somebody interested in creating a "sport," would have built with it a strong system of competitive rules, which I'm fairly certain did not happen. The point being that first there was Judo. Then, there was sport Judo.

If somebody can find solid evidence that Kano created Judo as a sport, or can point me to a rulebook of some sort that I was unaware of, I will gladly take that as evidence that a sport was actually in mind.

Judo isn't precisely modified Jiujitsu either. That would be like saying something is "modified Kung Fu."

Ok, which style are we talking about here? Jiujitsu is a broad term that encompassed many schools of practiced. Judo is more like a compilation of techniques from different ryu that could be practiced full speed.

I would argue then that Judo was in fact a new system of PRACTICE that relied on modifying/borrowing techniques from many jiujitsu ryu.

It might be "semantics," but definitions drive meaning and without them communication is useless.

[Green Cloud]

OK MP I'l take your word for it over what's written down in books. And San Shou is modified Kung Fu.

[The Xia]

Jigoro Kano himself talks about his creation.
http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist5.htm

[The Xia]

I like to think of San Shou as a rule set. You have rules and gloves. This means you cannot use everything. However, the techniques used are still from Kung Fu. Someone who practices a TCMA can do San Shou, but can’t use everything he knows. On the other hand, someone can just train what is allowable in San Shou. Either way, it’s still TCMA, albeit the latter is not training a complete Kung Fu style.