Zhou Tong - Teacher of Gen. Yue Fei

[ghostexorcist]

Interesting. Didn't know that. Thanks. Could you tell where this info comes from? Just curious.


ghostexorsist,

in that wikipedia article there's this part mentioning his strenght or ability as an archer. In think that it is not that he could fire 8 stones with a sling, but rather bend a crossbow with a draw weight of 8 stones, where a 'stone' is a weight measure. You might go to atarn.net and ask some competent people there too.

Thanks. I originally had the translation as "pull a crossbow of 8 Shi" but a Chinese acquaintance on Wikipedia translated it as the current version. I guess my translation was more correct. I think he was trying to translate it in such a way that westerners might recognize. I’ll change it back.

[ghostexorcist]

象形拳 (Xiangxingquan)

What would be the best way of translating 象形拳? "Image Form Boxing"?

[Shaolin Master]

Imitation Boxing.

Regarding 蹴枝子, that is correct in the water margin there is ample depiction of that skill (like the shuttleball game that we played in high school).......

[ghostexorcist]

I rearranged portions of the page to bring an even greater balance to some of the historical and fictional information. But most importantly, I added a small paragraph detailing Zhou Tong's connections with Praying Mantis boxing. It’s at the bottom of the “Martial arts” section.

According to the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual, written in 1794, Abbot Fuyu invited 18 masters to Shaolin. Some of Zhou Tong's students were among those invited. And before anyone says anything, I realize that this meeting was probably a legend. The historical Fuyu lived from 1203-1275, so the gathering could not have taken place in the early Song Dynasty like it is stated in the numerous variations of this legend. It is also erroneous because Zhou Tong’s students would have died of old age by the time Abbot Fuyu held this gathering in the mid – late 13th century. Either it happened at the end of the Song Dynasty or not at all. (I hope I got the character right for “pu” from the Tanglang quan pu. Someone please tell me if I did or not.)

I would also like to note that I added the "Xiang Xing Quan" information as a footnote at the bottom of the page. I did, however, add it to the main eagle claw page where it actually belongs.

[mantis108]

According to the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual, written in 1794, Abbot Fuyu invited 18 masters to Shaolin. Some of Zhou Tong's students were among those invited. And before anyone says anything, I realize that this meeting was probably a legend. The historical Fuyu lived from 1203-1275, so the gathering could not have taken place in the early Song Dynasty like it is stated in the numerous variations of this legend. It is also erroneous because Zhou Tong’s students would have died of old age by the time Abbot Fuyu held this gathering in the mid – late 13th century. Either it happened at the end of the Song Dynasty or not at all. (I hope I got the character right for “pu” from the Tanglang quan pu. Someone please tell me if I did or not.)

I believe you are talking about the "Luohan Xinggong Duan Da" Manual which has many versions available. It is a "folk" martial arts manuscript as oppose to "government" sanctioned ones such as the Ming dynasty "Ji Xiao Xin Shu".

The manuscript is said to be edited by Shengxiao Daoren who claimed to have "learned" from Fuju (fortune resides) not Fuyu (fortune afluent). Fuju is more than likely a fictional character as with the many fictional characters in "18 families" sonnet or it's a character based on the historical Fuyu. At least 5 to 6 characters (1/3) amongst the 18 are fictional characters from different novels: 3 - 4 from Fei Long Quan Zhuan (a tale of Song Taizu) and 2 from the water margin.

The purpose of the 18 families is to "introduce" the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material.

BTW, Tanglang Quanpu is another manuscript date 1935 by a famous Tanglang master named Cui Shoushan. Tanglang Quanpu is rather a semi private manuscript.

Regards

Mantis108

[ghostexorcist]

I believe you are talking about the "Luohan Xinggong Duan Da" Manual which has many versions available. It is a "folk" martial arts manuscript as oppose to "government" sanctioned ones such as the Ming dynasty "Ji Xiao Xin Shu".

The manuscript is said to be edited by Shengxiao Daoren who claimed to have "learned" from Fuju (fortune resides) not Fuyu (fortune afluent). Fuju is more than likely a fictional character as with the many fictional characters in "18 families" sonnet or it's a character based on the historical Fuyu. At least 5 to 6 characters (1/3) amongst the 18 are fictional characters from different novels: 3 - 4 from Fei Long Quan Zhuan (a tale of Song Taizu) and 2 from the water margin.

The purpose of the 18 families is to "introduce" the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material.

BTW, Tanglang Quanpu is another manuscript date 1935 by a famous Tanglang master named Cui Shoushan. Tanglang Quanpu is rather a semi private manuscript.

Regards

Mantis108

I knew the difference between the Fuju and Fuyu abbots. I put Fuyu because I knew it was more historically correct. I guess I should change it to Fuju and comment how he is a fictionalized persona of the historical Fuyu.

Also, I've read about the other "Tanglang Quanpu" from 1935 as well. However, I didn't realize the one from 1794 went under a different name. All of my English sources call it the Tanglang Quanpu. What are the Chinese characters for "Luohan Xinggong Duan Da"? Could you send me a link to a Chinese page so I can use it as a source? Thanks.

[Shaolin Master]

罗汉行功短打 (Luohan Xinggong Duan Da)

ISSN： 1671-1572
体育文史
JOURNAL OF SPORT HISTORY AND CULTURE
2001 No.1 P.36-37,9

[ghostexorcist]

罗汉行功短打 (Luohan Xinggong Duan Da)

ISSN： 1671-1572
体育文史
JOURNAL OF SPORT HISTORY AND CULTURE
2001 No.1 P.36-37,9

Thanks. How would you translate that? I know what each individual character means, but I'm afraid I would butcher it into a "herky-jerky" english sentence.

[ghostexorcist]

The purpose of the 18 families is to "introduce" the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material. manuscript.

Can someone direct me to a martial arts page that actually states the intended use of the "18 families" legend?

[mantis108]

Can someone direct me to a martial arts page that actually states the intended use of the "18 families" legend?

I should clarify that this view is straightly my own coming from a praying mantis stylist of the Greater Meihwa Line tradition that began with Liang Xuexiang (1810 - ?) who happened to have written private manuscripts of his own.

I know of an article or two in Chinese that talks about the manuscript. Those are the insight of particular people who have worked on the manuscript in recent years but I don't know what qualification they have if any. So...

Regards

Mantis108

[ghostexorcist]

My article is currently rated as "B-class" on the quality scale by the military history wiki project. There are six classes: Stub, Start, B-class, Good Article (GA), A-class, and Featured. Featured articles are shown on the main home page of English Wikipedia for all new comers and veterans to see. B-class and Good article are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is "usefulness to all readers" and a few other points.

The reason my article will NEVER progress beyond the B or GA class is because of its scant material. Overall, the length of my article is good, but I don't have enough "meat and potatoes" if you will in reference to his life and other matters. There is just too little written on Zhou Tong.

I sure could use A LOT more Chinese sources, even if they attribute to a fictional legend about him. All areas involving the myth or history of Zhou Tong should be covered.

[taaigihk]

Imitation Boxing.

Regarding 蹴枝子, that is correct in the water margin there is ample depiction of that skill (like the shuttleball game that we played in high school).......

I see. But was it a depiction of a game or a martial art (jiuzhizi)? It's not clear to me. Thanks

[Shaolin Master]

Hi taaigihk,

In the story it was a game.

For us it is also the name of just a single technique 蹴子脚. .....it is in our Raomatui form (Wentangzi)文趟子绕码腿.......the technique is in fact exactly as when playing the game.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

PS: Please join our forum, I have not released it yet (only have some test posts) but it should be ready to use.....http://wugong.satirio.com/phpBB/

[ghostexorcist]

I've added a few more things to the page and I have cleaned it up to make it easier to read. Before, it looked too "busy".

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Tang Lang legend from the 1700s comes from Shaolin history saying that Abbott Fu Yu during the time he was at Shaolin, over the span of some years, at least 3, maybe 5 invited many masters to come to Shaolin and help him revamp the system.
They did create a book with over 300 forms, and some new systems, such as
the Jin Gang style and the Protect the Home style, Kan Jia Quan.
These forms are still done by the oldest generations still around from Shaolin.

I guess that by the 1700s this factual stuff (?) changed into the legendary story.

But, what about Ilya's site talking about a book from Shaolin that was from the Song Dynasty that also mentions the 18 masters and was his 'proof" that Wang Lang was really from Song period and not Qing? Was that book really from the Song dynasty?

For some reason, the story is that this Fu Yu went to Shandong after Shaolin got shut down by the Yuan Dynasty.

Wasn't Fu Yu appointed by the Mongolians?
That's what I read in a history book once.