the death of habeus corpus

[David Jamieson]

Time for a regime change!

get the canoe and the gun, I think eddie in flin flon has it this weekend, butif we make good time, we can be in baltimore by tuesday!

seriously though, anybody sitting up yet?

[FuXnDajenariht]

the thing is Americans have been sitting up Dave. we all expected big changes come election day. people have finally woken up and are sick and tired, but i dont think anyone expected this ****! we are a so called democratic nation. we can't have a modern day russian revolution after all. the bills of rights is sacred writ. absolutely off limits.

i can't describe how i feel right now watching the very core of American society being destroyed from the inside. its unconscionable. the president of our country basically removes the very foundation of our Bill of Rights and in many ways the foundation of democratic society, habeas corpus, to save his own ass from war crime charges.

and some speculate also so democrats wont make it an election issue? is this the planet earth? am i hearing this correctly? have politicians gone that far off the deep end? i never thought in my lifetime. this is the type of **** you read about in bad political thrillers.

i also have no clue how this is flying under the radar. its barely in the news. i just heard about this today. i bet if you ask most Americans they wouldn't have half a clue what the hell you were talking about.

my god! how can you look yourself in the mirror and call yourself a Bush supporter after this?! THE EVIDENCE IS RIGHT INFRONT OF YOU!

[FuXnDajenariht]

you realize of this is all true and 100% official, we essentially makes us a military dictatorship?

i hafta see how this story unfolds the next fews days before making final decisions but the fact that they even considered it.....

[FuXnDajenariht]

Democrats say nothing though. their afraid of attack ads apparently.

is there any doubt we need a complete overhaul of this 2 party run travesty they call a system?

[Merryprankster]

David,

Trust me, Americans are paying attention. The difference between the Michael Moore left and the left that can actually get something done, has some decent ideas and is committed to improving the planet instead of saying REALLY stupid **** all the time is that we recognize something important:

This too shall pass.

Term limits are a beautiful thing, and the backlash is scaring the crap out of the republicans...and more importantly, fracturing their own party along the always precarious union between libertarian-leaning fiscal conservatives and big-government "moral" conservatives.

I don't buy in to the hell in a handbasket thesis, for the simple reason that the system is quite sound and stable - and people who aren't stupid still believe their vote counts.

When THAT starts to change - when a contentious political environment creates voter APATHY vice strident argument (see Venezuela) - I'll start being worried.

Until then, all I can do is hope that political weakness mitigates the President's stupidity, and that the next President can begin the decade or so it will take to repair our reputation abroad.

[David Jamieson]

I personally think that Cthulu will eat america first, but hey what do I know?

on a more serious note, this thing he and shotgun are doing is amazing.

no tar? no feathers? no rail?

what's happened to you america?

ok, so i dropped out of serious, but really, wtf???

[Scott R. Brown]

I wouldn’t worry about it!

Lincoln suspended HB during the Civil War. It was returned. Roosevelt did the same thing during WWII and it was once again returned. Remember the Japanese internment camps?

Most of the time everything comes out in the wash in the end, but sometimes it doesn't! Does anyone remember the trial of the Branch Davidians in Waco? I don't think they had one! Or how about Elian Gonzales? Did he get a fair hearing?

There will be some injustices to be sure, but overall this is nothing new that America hasn't already done repeatedly and we have survived with our civil rights intact and sometimes more strongly protected.

There is no need to panic unless you are one of the ones to be unfairly incarcerated. Then it is time to complain!!

Governments are never going to be perfect. In America there is always a struggle to balance civil rights with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What I mean by this is the intent is to protect the rights of the majority by suspending HB on the few for the benefit of the right to live of the majority. The fine line between the two rights will always vacillate depending upon the needs of the time and the social necessity for each. Because in America we have a vigorous and never-ending political debate on these issues it is doubtful this “limited” suspension will last forever. As long as Americans have the right to vote, free speech and to assemble to protest there will be means available to respond to perceived injustices.

Injustice is in the eye of the beholder anyway. I worked over 12 years in Corrections. Not many felons believe they deserve incarceration. It is the tensional pull between two opposite views that keeps our rights somewhere in the middle. Sometimes they will lean towards permissiveness and sometimes towards restrictiveness. Balance is found when the two opposing views counter each other keeping extremes under control. This is the designed purpose the American founding fathers had when creating the American political system. It is set up so that opposing views will control each other through political debate and the result is protection from extremes.

[David Jamieson]

wow scott. comparing bushes war on shadows to the civil war and ww2.

are you sure you're not rove? lol

yeah, Mussolinis government gafs came to a good resolution in the end so i guess it all does come out in the wash.

gonzalez? the cuban kid? can a little kid even be tried?

waco? isn't there still some flap going on over how the atf proceeded with that? didn't they kill some kids?

[omarthefish]

I wouldn’t worry about it!

Lincoln suspended HB during the Civil War. It was returned. Roosevelt did the same thing during WWII and it was once again returned. Remember the Japanese internment camps?

Most of the time everything comes out in the wash in the end, but sometimes it doesn't! Does anyone remember the trial of the Branch Davidians in Waco? I don't think they had one! Or how about Elian Gonzales? Did he get a fair hearing?

There will be some injustices to be sure, but overall this is nothing new that America hasn't already done repeatedly and we have survived with our civil rights intact and sometimes more strongly protected..

Huge difference. Aside from the sheer comedy of comparing Bush's "war on terror" to WW2 or the Civil War......I mean, the "war on terror" isn't actually a war anymore than the "war on drugs" or the "war on poverty" is. Did we enter WW2 so that Roosevelt could have an excuse to suspend Habeas Corpus?

The Branch Davidians were:

a. killed in the act of apprehension. They were not seized and then denied trial. If they surrendered them selves do you honestly think they would have been denied their constitutional rights?

b. A huge scandal. There was inquiry. It was an embarrassment. It wasn't written into law. Your example is like taking an unpunished act of police brutality and comparing it to a law that states that polices officers may legally beat the **** out of anyone that looks "suspicious".

There is a HUGE difference between illegal actions like the Japanese internment camps (reparations were paid even if too little and too late) to simply legislating that that is now how we do things. Under the new law you would not be enitled to any recourse. Take the Canadian citizen in the clip posted that was seized at the US border and deported to Syria (even though he was a Canadian) and then brutally tortured for 10 months before he was cleared. With the new law, he could have been an American citizen and it would STILL be legal under American law. It's bad enough as it is.

This is NOT like anything that has come before. What has come before was not legislated into legality. Habeas corpus, on occasion, has not been observed but it has, in the past, been ILLEGAL.

Fuxen is right. Once this passes we are officially no longer a democracy. I don't know the right term because I don't think it IS a military dictatorship but the president IS being given dictatorial powers.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi David,

911 wasn’t a shadow, over 3,000 people died, but the terrorists responsible and those that still exist, living in the shadows, does not mean we are in no danger from them. It is BECAUSE they live in the shadows that the danger is considered greater. Hiding amongst us and taking advantage of our freedoms to our detriment is where the danger resides. It is easier to defeat an enemy you can identify then the enemy that hides within the shadows, right?

Hitler gained the power and imposed the destruction and genocide he did because good people did nothing to stop him when his threat was lesser. In general, our criminal justice system is reactive; Bush is attempting to be proactive. This proactiveness is intended to protect lives, not squash civil rights. There is a political danger in this. Think of the position Bush is in! If he does too little there will be another attack and he will be considered responsible and criticized for doing too little. If he does too much then he is considered to be trampling on civil rights in order to over-extend the power of government. It is a no-win situation politically. His first priority is the protection of the American people. If he appears to over-extend and there are no more attacks then his over-extension is viewed as unnecessary and not given the credit for protecting the citizenry.

In some circumstances it is more prudent to be overly cautious than not cautious enough. This is mostly likely one of those times. Very few individuals will be affected by the suspension of HB. The suspension of HB will be considered insignificant by most Americans until it appears to over-extend itself, which will occur when it affects a larger number of individuals in an unfair manner. It will then be reeled in. That is the American political system at work. But woe is to the man who reels it in and then another major attack comes because of its repeal.

We are in the mess we are in because the Clinton administration imposed too many barriers on intelligence gathering and sharing. We are now paying the price of too great of a protection of civil rights and 3,000 people died because of it. The pendulum has temporarily swung the opposite direction. At some point it will once again swing back!

Generally, we must consider the imposition of restrictions of SOME civil rights worth the protection of 3,000 or more lives. So far the impact of HB’s suspension is minor, therefore it is not really imposing on the civil rights of the majority. I don’t mind losing “some” civil rights if it protects the majority. I would not like to be unfairly incarnated, but then I don’t participate in suspicious activities either! Individual’s must consider the consequnces of their own behaviors under the present climate and take responsibility for them. If you are purchasing over 1,000 disposable cell phones, which are known to be used for terrorist activities, why should one complain when their activities are examined and they are incarcerated? If one is sending money to suspicious organizations in foreign countries one must expect examination and be able to demonstrate their actions are mundane. Do you have the right to purchase 1,000 cell phones? Not anymore! You must demonstrate a very good reason for it! If you call a Black man the “N” word you get what you asked for! If you behave in a clearly suspicious manner in today’s climate then you get what you asked for as well! All actions have consequnces. It is only the fool and those seeking to take advantage of our criminal system to their own advantage and the general population's disavantage that would complain.

Yes, the government over-extended itself in the Waco incident. There was no imminent danger to anyone at the time and no reason to attack the Davidian nuts. Were they breaking the law? Well it was originally a weapons possession violation if I recall correctly. Then to gain popular support, they suggested child abuse. Well death for no good reason is a bit worse than unproven child abuse claims. There is still some question over who and how the fire started. The Davidian’s are responsible for their behaviors, don’t misunderstand me, but the government pushed too hard, too fast and civil rights and lives were lost. The whole affair from beginning to end was completely mishandled and those responsible have not been punished. But then las I stated earlier, no government is perfect!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Omar,

It is most likely that your fears are over-exaggerated.

Do you think no one was tortured and killed during evidence extraction during WWII? My grandfather was a chaplain and witnessed a Yugoslav spy being tortured. Are there excesses? Yes! There always are and always will be. It is foolish to think we will ever live in an idealized world. Mistakes occur, individuals will become over-zealous.

While I am sorry for the man in Canada, I do not take the the news account as gospel. The former head of CNN stated publicly that he squashed and ignored occurrences in Iraq for the sole purpose of keeping a bureau in country. You believe the news account because you want too. I do not accept it out of hand.

One man's torture is another man's fraternity hazing!

If the events, as stated, in fact occurred then I am sorry for the individual. However, I am more concerned that we do not lose the lives of another 3,000 or more Americans. We should make every effort to ensure that we catch the right people, but mistakes will occur from time to time. Providing acceptable apologies and compensation are the proper response to these errors.

In an ideal world the innocent are protected and the guilty punished. Realistically this will never occur. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but neither should we be surprised when injustice occurs. I myself have been treated in what I consider to be an unjust manner by the criminal justice system. I was angry about it, but that is life. I can carry it around as a burden or I can let it go and get on with my life. I chose to get on with my life.

Whining that life is unfair is unproductive, as is fearing what has not yet occurred with no clear evidence that it will occur. If you want to have an unrealistic fear, then fear the meteor the Russian astronomer insists will hit the earth in the next 10 or 20 years, but then maybe the aliens will abduct us all before then!

[omarthefish]

Hitler gained the power and imposed the destruction and genocide he did because good people did nothing to stop him when his threat was lesser.

Exactly.

You really could have ended your post right there. The rest of it is you actually arguing....I can't believe you have the balls to argue it in public...that it is OK to torture, imprision without trial, arrest without stating charges etc. You listed various atrocities and heinous crimes explaining that well, life's not perfect. Yeah. No ****. That's why we have laws against that stuff.

In an ideal world the innocent are protected and the guilty punished. Realistically this will never occur. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but neither should we be surprised when injustice occurs.

So what's your point then? You seem to be arguoing both sides. I hope to god that my fears ARE exaggerated but why should I assume that they aren't? That is exactly how atrocities happen and (only on page one and already you mentioned Hitler) in Germany the argument "it can't happen here" was tossed around too. It CAN happen here. In fact, it IS happening here. The only question is how far it is going to go. Life DOES go on and crimes DO happen and sometimes it all ends in the destruction of a nation, the extermination of a minority group or the shift from Democracy to a dictatorship. That's how it happens all the time and the argument for the removal of cival liberties and basic human rights goes something like this:

It is BECAUSE they live in the shadows that the danger is considered greater. Hiding amongst us and taking advantage of our freedoms to our detriment is where the danger resides. It is easier to defeat an enemy you can identify then the enemy that hides within the shadows, right?

That is the exact same argument used in the McCarthy era, early Natzi Germany and endless other places where cult of personality leaders rose and destroyed the constitutional govt that had existed previous. That IS the CLASSIC argument. Just replace "terrorists" with the political or ethnic group of the day. It is a circular reasoning. You punch someone in the face and then they hit you and then you fight and then you rationalize that it was right to punch them in the face because, see? He is a violent person. Even the 911 commision finnaly found that the actions to supposedly fight terror have had the exact opposite effect. The make the above argument is disengenuous and, quote frankly, disgusting.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for even pretending to believe that line of thought.

[b82rez]

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” -- Theodore Roosevelt


How much are you willing to put up with for your own feeling of security? The Muslim who stops to pray in public could be a fanatic...so get him away from me...the priest walking around patting kids on the head looks like he could in some way be a pedophile...lock him up...the women walking around in mini-skirts arouse men so we should cover them up to protect them from potential rape, etc (sound familiar?)

You guys see where I'm going with this. Some of you have posted on it. The bottom line is...we either have our rights or we don't. Any laws that make it convenient to side-step any of those rights by the powers that be go against what this country should stand for and what we claim to stand for in our "war on terror".

The right course of action in any situation is an opinon or based on personal agenda if left up to only one man or one group. You really get the population involved and positive change would take an upper hand.

Stop letting others make decisions for you. POWER TO THE PEOPLE.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The US system is not some elitist self-serving ideal.. it is basic to everyone of every nation.. these are "self-evident truths".. The US must stand for something, must rise above the rest.. as we separate ourselves from the rest of the world, as we savor our freedoms and exclude others.. we build the resentment that will be our undoing.. This administration exports customed designed "democracy", it practices deception upon the world at large and upon the very people from which they derive "their just powers from the consent of the governed".. This administration not only uses existing loopholes to circumvent its own laws, it creates new ones.. The US is spiraling into the same mire as the rest of the world, where once we were a shining example of hope.. The people, by their silence, consent...

Be well...

[AJM]

The United States has been a military dictatorship since wwII. The National Security act of 1947 made it official.