the death of habeus corpus

[David Jamieson]

scott-

your first sentence...beginning with "911 wasn't a shadow..." sounds like you're a ditto head to the bush admin. Really hurts your credibility, despite the ubiquity of words you blurt out following that. Is 911 even remotely connect to Iraq? no. Has Bush changed his motivations for taking Amerioca into that unilateral attack on a weakened country? Yes, several times. I could go on and on and on and on. Would you sidetrack it further? Lincoln? WW2? wtf man???

who the heck said anything about 911 and how is bush having a war on 911?

Just watch what is happening, because, if you're american, it is definitely at some point going to effect you if he gets away with this nonsense.

Don't even bother trying to convince me that there is even one iota of the correct in the Bush admin, because they have worked very hard to erode their credibility fromday one as far as I'm concerned.

I said he was a blundering and failed statesman then and Im saying it again now.
You are of course are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to serve horseshit and think that people will just lap it up.

good grief.

[Radhnoti]

Look...I think Bush signing the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform was a direct assault on our Constitution, specifically the "Freedom of Speech" section. Bush admitted that he thought so as well...BEFORE SIGNING IT. If someone wants to string him up for that, fine. If anyone starts curtailing U.S. citizens their rights...like habeus corpus...I'm all for condemning Bush. Franklin said, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.", and I agree with the sentiment.
Having said that, I don't feel it's necessary to give non-citizens the same rights held by U.S. citizens. It's my government's job to protect ME, let other countries work for the rights of it's own citizens via treaties, agreements, etc. That's what ambassadors are for. If I go to Iran and bring in anti-government pamphlets and get arrested, whose fault is that? My own. If I'm lucky the U.S. government will work to make a deal for my release. If a Saudi gets caught here setting up terror cells, I don't WANT him to have the years and years of trials and appeals our system dictates. I want him in a cell receiving the minimum acceptable standard of care, or I want him dead to insure the safety of my friends, neighbors and family. That's my government's job. You say, "What if he's innocent?" I say, when you're in another country you'd better work hard NOT to be in compromising circumstances. Be aware of the climate of the country you're visiting, and be prepared to take responsibility for yourself.

Iraq. Saddam defied the U.S. and the U.N, including 7 or 8 "deadlines"....he had chemical weapons (WMDs) and used them...it's known that he met with representatives of Al Qaida...we know he attempted assassination of a former U.S. President...we know he had the fuselage of a 747 and allowed groups to come and use it to simulate hijacking airliners. I think Bush thought he was close to nukes...the MAJORITY of world wide intelligence organizations seemed to point that way as well.
But for all that, Bush's preemptive strategy is not something I agree with currently. What could show me that Bush was right? The situation in N. Korea. It's easy for us to assign blame to Bush with 20/20 hindsight. Using the situation in N. Korea as a gauge on how you'd have reacted to Iraq...do you think it would be worth it to preemptively strike N.Korea? Are you willing to accept the responsibility if...no, WHEN N. Korea supplies terrorists or rogue states with nukes? They HAVE to export that technology or receive payment NOT to export it, they're too broke NOT to do so. The world has been placed in the wretched circumstance of hoping communist China will bring another communist nation to heel...

P.S. I also agree with Scott that much of the anti-Bush media sources (meaning all but Fox News and talk radio) greatly exaggerate things. Hopefully that's the case with this specific legislation.

[MasterKiller]

P.S. I also agree with Scott that much of the anti-Bush media sources (meaning all but Fox News and talk radio) greatly exaggerate things. Hopefully that's the case with this specific legislation.

You have to be kidding me. He's had a cake-walk in the press by either paying off or strong-arming the media since 9/11.

Bush has faced less media scrutiny over Iraq and Afghanistan combined than Clinton did over Elian Gonzales.

[FuXnDajenariht]

so you agree with the party line that the basic human rights of non US citizens are meaningless?

we're not Iran and this is definitely not the ****ing Middle East. im soo soo tired of people invoking 9/11 as an excuse for corrupt, illegal and just plain wrongheaded actions. i might catch flack for this but so what? 3000 people have died. we were caught off guard. its seriously time to move on. the population just reached 300 million today. the future of American society is under attack. i think we really have more immediate and pressing matters to concern us.

whats truly insulting is that the lives and deaths of 3000 people are continually used for politically gain. its been proven the war on Iraq has made us less safe. we haven't been attacked. thats great. but it certainly hasn't been because of anything that King Bush has done. we haven't been attacked despite his actions. you and i all know that. most Americans know that. but yet we still fall for the party line bull****.

it definitely not PC to say this but truly ask yourself if 3000 lives are worth the destruction of the very foundation of American society. i certainly dont think so. many hundreds of thousands reaching into the millions have freely given their lives to protect us against legitimate threats against out liberty. WW2 being one of them. we spit on their graves when we allow legislation like this to pass. so we can hide all safe and secure. but then you say we paid for protecting freedoms too much with 9/11? you cannot be ****ing serious dude..... comparing torture to fraternity hazing? really?

this argument is totally inexcusable. we know how to fight the war on terror. it certainly doesn't have anything to do with an actual war. its been proven. its fought on the local level with good police work and intelligence gathering. Britain and other countries successfully use this method. with far superior results than we've ever had. i might add without major changes to their constitution. alienating the rights of citizens or insighting muslim anger. it also didn't put their governments in trillions of dollars of debt. so dont give me that Iraq war apologetic bull****

i might catch more flack for this but i'd rather lose the lives of 3000 more Americans than see the constitution and the bill of rights spit on, trampled on and destroyed, because you know what? a lot more of us are gonna lose our lives if worse comes to worse and we finally wake up, but its too late and we're in an actual fight for our freedoms. and i would be the first one signing up and laying down my life for that fight.. no lost of any of our freedoms is acceptable in my opinion.

[Becca]

the fact that he wants to pardon himself of war crimes pre-emptively is evidence right there of his crimes.

And the fact that he's trying to strip us of our constitutional rights just because he says so didn't???

[FuXnDajenariht]

i understand what your saying but this is on another level i think. hes basically protecting himself from being tried internationally as a war criminal. an American president....i cant even wrap my brain around that. im not sure anyone even accused him of war crimes. its sort of like a company making customers sign a waiver protecting against lawsuits for a product they know is dangerous and can cause fatalities before they purchase it.

we know his entire aimless administration is bent on consolidating as much power for the executive branch as possible and flushing the Constitution one law at a time down the toilet is their means to an end. but i think Americans were gonna finally stand up and fight back on election day. this is how our democracy works. thats how things are done ideally, since i dont think anyone expected him to get impeached.

.....but that bill can take this "game" to a whole nother level.

i dont even pretend to understand the motivation behind half the irrational things the white house does.

[FuXnDajenariht]

You have to be kidding me. He's had a cake-walk in the press by either paying off or strong-arming the media since 9/11.

Bush has faced less media scrutiny over Iraq and Afghanistan combined than Clinton did over Elian Gonzales.

i agree. freedom of speech always needed improvements in this country, but i'll be d@mn-ed if it hasn't been officially dead since Bush took office. i bet you half the corrupt things the white house has done wont even reach the light of day for another 50 years. the news on some channels reads like a 24 hour propaganda piece.

[David Jamieson]

Look...I think Bush signing the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform was a direct assault on our Constitution, specifically the "Freedom of Speech" section. Bush admitted that he thought so as well...BEFORE SIGNING IT. If someone wants to string him up for that, fine. If anyone starts curtailing U.S. citizens their rights...like habeus corpus...I'm all for condemning Bush. Franklin said, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.", and I agree with the sentiment.
Having said that, I don't feel it's necessary to give non-citizens the same rights held by U.S. citizens. It's my government's job to protect ME, let other countries work for the rights of it's own citizens via treaties, agreements, etc. That's what ambassadors are for. If I go to Iran and bring in anti-government pamphlets and get arrested, whose fault is that? My own. If I'm lucky the U.S. government will work to make a deal for my release. If a Saudi gets caught here setting up terror cells, I don't WANT him to have the years and years of trials and appeals our system dictates. I want him in a cell receiving the minimum acceptable standard of care, or I want him dead to insure the safety of my friends, neighbors and family. That's my government's job. You say, "What if he's innocent?" I say, when you're in another country you'd better work hard NOT to be in compromising circumstances. Be aware of the climate of the country you're visiting, and be prepared to take responsibility for yourself.

Iraq. Saddam defied the U.S. and the U.N, including 7 or 8 "deadlines"....he had chemical weapons (WMDs) and used them...it's known that he met with representatives of Al Qaida...we know he attempted assassination of a former U.S. President...we know he had the fuselage of a 747 and allowed groups to come and use it to simulate hijacking airliners. I think Bush thought he was close to nukes...the MAJORITY of world wide intelligence organizations seemed to point that way as well.
But for all that, Bush's preemptive strategy is not something I agree with currently. What could show me that Bush was right? The situation in N. Korea. It's easy for us to assign blame to Bush with 20/20 hindsight. Using the situation in N. Korea as a gauge on how you'd have reacted to Iraq...do you think it would be worth it to preemptively strike N.Korea? Are you willing to accept the responsibility if...no, WHEN N. Korea supplies terrorists or rogue states with nukes? They HAVE to export that technology or receive payment NOT to export it, they're too broke NOT to do so. The world has been placed in the wretched circumstance of hoping communist China will bring another communist nation to heel...

P.S. I also agree with Scott that much of the anti-Bush media sources (meaning all but Fox News and talk radio) greatly exaggerate things. Hopefully that's the case with this specific legislation.

hmmm, where to start, where to start, lets start with your second paragraph regarding wmd, the un resolutions etc.

a) when saddam gassed the kurds in northern iraq, he did it with americas blessing and with chemical weapons provided to him by the USA.

b) the original push to get the war part deux going was that the USA had Intel that there was wmd in Iraq. There wasn't, there isn't and there still isn't. After that pile of stupidity, the said it was about regime change. Afetr saddam was toppled it was about spreading democracy. So...why is the USA there now?

c)North Korea. their acquisition of two nuclear reactors was signed off on by *drumroll* Donald Rumsfeld. Not only that, but NK is a bigger burr in americas ass than Iraq ever was.

d) as an addendum, the only conversation with Al Qaeda that Saddam had was to tell Bin Laden to go F himself. And, intelligence shows from more sources taht there were never any alq camps in Iraq and no connection whatsoever. Not to mention No connection to 911 either. And 12 years of sanctions on Iraq and the oil for food scandal that involved the UN and US business folks and others as well.

What part of it all are people not getting I wonder? Distraction doesn't take away from the egrigiousness of the actions of Bush and Cheney, the PNAC folks and more particularly Wolfowitz's whacko view of how things should be.

assassination on dad is no reason to slaughter 1000's of innocents and steal their country.

so, any one else gonna make excuses for the hubris monkey you would call president? there's a lot more stacked against him and trying to pardon yourself is indeed extraordinary and as stated, practically an admission of guilt. How much longer do we have to deal with this stuff? the whole terror thing can be dealt with in much more effective ways if you remove the asswipe politicians from the equation.

and if you don't think Saudi Arabia is the real problem, then you are an ostrich. But you know what? The Saud royal family just happens to have greased the Bushes to the tune of a billion plus in what is tantamount to hush money.

and, what about cave boy? why can't he be turned up? a trillion dollar fighting force and surveillance system can't turn up one dude in a cave? wtf is wrong with the picture here?

get a grip bushies, your man is the wrong man and never was the right man.

[Fu-Pow]

Totally agree with the Fuxin.

This kind of **** is scary as hell and yet Americans just lay down for it...the media lays down for it to do "fair and balanced", advertiser friendly commentary.

Bush has no respect for the very fundamentals that our country was founded on and that makes our country unique....ie the Bill of Rights. Bush's ideology=a Theological Authoritarian regime.

He's very very far removed from "fiscal conservatives", look at the billions of dollars wasted on the Iraq war.

Unless things change it will get to the point of civil war....when our civil liberties are so far degraded that the only choice is violence to overthrow the dictatorial authoritarian government...if we are even able.

The Conservative Christian coalition doesn't care though because they think we're all headed towards the "end of days" anyways so as long as they're "good christians" they can **** up this life for everbody else.

**** this ****!! **** America...you don't deserve your rights if you just **** it away by voting for religious tyrannical morons like Bush. People have died for the opportunities that most Americans now take for granted.

What happened to the days when Americans had a spine and didn't just take it up the a$$ from the government.

What was that line from V from Vendetta "it's not people that should fear the government, its the government that should fear the people."

Apparently not in the US where we lay down like dogs while our pursuit of life liberty and happiness is degraded in the name of "national security."

FP

[David Jamieson]

I wouldn't say Bush is religious. I'd say he has had Rove get into bed with the religious right strictly for that voting block, but as far as Bush being religious? No. Not unless he's a satan worshipper. lol.

What's his church? what's his denomination? anyone? Bueller.

The religious right just happens to be big in the bible belt of america and they neede dthe votes so they pandered to them and pretended to be on board with what roberts, falwell, and the rest of those half baked looney tunes crew had going for them which is a bunch of sheep that can vote. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bush is as far from being a Christian as Bin Laden and way less religious than him too.

[Merryprankster]

Wow,

This thread has taken a giant leap into the abyss. Thank God I didn't read it before it got too long for me to care.

[FuXnDajenariht]

its the truth Merry. if you can't handle that, then i dont know what to tell you. this effects all of us. i made this thread for people angry enough to do sumthin about it.

[Fu-Pow]

I wouldn't say Bush is religious. I'd say he has had Rove get into bed with the religious right strictly for that voting block, but as far as Bush being religious? No. Not unless he's a satan worshipper. lol.

Bush is a "born again" christian. It's not so much a denomination as a mindset.

The religious right just happens to be big in the bible belt of america and they neede dthe votes so they pandered to them and pretended to be on board with what roberts, falwell, and the rest of those half baked looney tunes crew had going for them which is a bunch of sheep that can vote. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bush is as far from being a Christian as Bin Laden and way less religious than him too.

The worst thing that ever happened in this country was the pairing of the social "right" with the fiscal "right." Its a huge voting block that largely has nothing to do with each other.

At least the fiscal "right" are understandable and are mostly about rational self-interest. The social "right" on the other hand are mostly religious, fear mongering, irrational fanatical wackos.

When will the fiscal "right" wake up and smell the coffee? I guess as long as they're making money....oh oops....U.S. economy is in the tank....billions of dollars to fight the "radical islamic fascists"...give me a god**** break.

FDR had it right "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

FP

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Not much more need be said.. more must be done!! We can lament the disolving of the American Ideal, the destruction of the US Constitution, the loss of rights by the "consent of the governed".. yes, WE have consented by our sheepish inaction.. i was an anti-war protester in the late '60s early '70s, we stopped a war! Where have we gone astray? Why haven't WE gone to the streets in protest of this hijacking of the American Philosophy?

The Bush family, each and everyone, has raped this Nation's ideals for profit and gain.. and, they did it by lying and deceiving the people into believing that we will be safer for it.. shame on us!! The administration has done little or nothing to secure the US borders, it feeds the fear that terrorists might be flowing in.. open borders serve the administration's agendas of control by fear..

The US labor force is suffering horrendously at the hands of illegal immigrants, a slow and persistent invasion of a foreign people that gain access illegally, avoid taxes and labor laws, further destabilizing the economy.. and, the invading illegal immigrants can fill the streets with protesters while native-born Americans can't even preserve what is left of our constitution and dignity..

The US public citizenry has been bent over and driven home by an administration that says "if i can't profit from it, if i can't make it serve me, then.. kill it.." and, that same administration laughs as it lies and when it gets caught, it says "so what, we'll just make a law that says it's okay.." How is this possible in "the land of the free and the home of the brave"?

America used to be a shining bright beacon of democracy and fairness, of laws that meant something other than serving the lawmakers.. We are a government "of the people, for the people and by the people", it is high time to reclaim that ideal..

Be well..

[Becca]

b) the original push to get the war part deux going was that the USA had Intel that there was wmd in Iraq. There wasn't, there isn't and there still isn't. After that pile of stupidity, the said it was about regime change. Afetr saddam was toppled it was about spreading democracy. So...why is the USA there now?

One word: Afganistan. This is the one and only reason I support the war effort. It is a war we had no right starting. But we've taken it too far now. If we walk away with the level of insecurity in Iraq we will be inviting the Taliban to take over there, as well as regain controll of Afganistan. It sucks, no two ways about it. But history has a way of repeating itself, and failing to right a wrong we made is what got us this terrorist problem in the first place.

For all those "Bush Haters"- take a good look... there have been very few presidents who have gotten it right. That's what term limits are for. Bush is pretty dispicable... But so was Clinton, Nixon, and at times, even Regan and Kennedy.

Elections for me are not so much a matter of who can do a better job, but who scarres me the least. And I keep voting for GoGo the Dancing Goat 'cause they all scare me...