the death of habeus corpus

[unkokusai]

We are on the path to internal collapse in every single way I can see.


he have ALREADY completely destroyed America's position in the world as a symbol for freedom and democracy.

That's just fact.

We are the bad guys.


THAT's why we have to worry about terrorists.


No country in the world looks to America as representative of anything but arrogance and military might.



That's just a fact.



Do a little world traveling and you can see.

Don't you see how all that hyperbole makes it hard to take you seriously? "Yeah man, yeah!" among other extreme liberals might make you feel good but its all masturbation.

"What I say is a fact, and if you don't agree you are a zombie/pawn/fool/etc." is pointless and precludes any further discussion. I like the "Do a little world traveling" bit! Classic liberal attitude, as if no one who has "seen the world" could possibly disagree with their 'enlightened' view.

I say again.....

[unkokusai]

you should just leave us "liberal" fanatics to our squalor

That's exactly what you want. You want to hold your little circle-jerk where you all 'affirm' each other in your oh-so-dramatic wailing and rending of cloth.


Pointless.

[unkokusai]

The reason I bring it up is that its never a clear cut issue...us vs. them.....

Al Qaeda is no real threat to our national security, they're like militant graffiti artists.

So, the fact is that you DO think it's clear cut, and you think America is the bad guy. I hope you can live with your choice.


As for "militant graffiti artists," that is so deeply offensive in the face of those who died on 9/11 and in Bali, and in Spain, etc. that I couldn't possibly say "**** you" often enough to get the point across to you as to how I feel about it.

[unkokusai]

if we did catch him any legitimacy for being in the Middle East would be gone i think, .

So if we caught him all other terrorists would just disappear like magic?

[omarthefish]

Don't you see how all that hyperbole makes it hard to take you seriously? "Yeah man, yeah!" among other extreme liberals might make you feel good but its all masturbation.

"What I say is a fact, and if you don't agree you are a zombie/pawn/fool/etc." is pointless and precludes any further discussion. I like the "Do a little world traveling" bit! Classic liberal attitude, as if no one who has "seen the world" could possibly disagree with their 'enlightened' view.

I say again.....

I didn't actually call anyone names. That's your own addition. Not part of my argument.

Again, what part of my "hyperbole" is not true? A little projection here? You are the one throwing add hominems around. You entered the thread with one and you are finishing up this post with one. "liberal hysteria", "classic liberal attitude". Can't attack the argument so you attack the person.

Why is international travel a "liberal" activity? Never heard that before. You've done some. Does that make you a "classic liberal"?

I didn't realize that civil liberties were a "liberal value". So the conservative position is that they aren't that important? *scratches head*

How is radical restructuring of our legal system, elimination of something as fundamental as habeas corpus a conservative move? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Put away your rolling eyes and your ad hominem attacks and see if you actually have anything to say on the argument. So far all we've got from your end is smileys and name calling.

[unkokusai]

Can't attack the argument so you attack the person. .

You're missing the point. I have no interest in attacking your argument. Nor you personally, per se. It's the pervasive attitude itself that I am addressing.

If people are opposed to a law, that's fine. If you disagree with me that's fine too. But "Jack-boots are coming" "WE are the bad guys" "It's our own fault when our enemies seek our destruction" is just a ridiculous, nihilistic attitude and the more you liberal work each other up into a lather the more difficult it becomes to take you seriously.

[FuXnDajenariht]

quote by unkokusai>
"So if we caught him all other terrorists would just disappear like magic?"

if we went about the entire military offense the correct way, yes. life would be a lot less complicated for America. Bin Laden is the leader of Al Quaida, the only known connection to 9/11 that we're completely sure about. everything else is just scapegoating and speculation........oh wait but a couple of the hijackers involved in the 9/11 attacks were Saudi Arabian. we're in bed with Saudi Arabia, so it doesn't even count does it?


quote by unkokusai>
"As for "militant graffiti artists," that is so deeply offensive in the face of those who died on 9/11 that I couldn't possibly say "**** you" often enough to get the point across to you as to how I feel about it. "

for stating clear evidence that the Bush admin has been more detrimental to American society than any perceived enemies that we actually have Fu-Pow gets accused of insulting the victims of 9/11? you've got to be kidding me.... its a metaphor for the relativity of the present situation we potentially face because of the decisions made by Bush, compared to the actual fact of the effects of the 9/11 attacks. i dont see him as denigrating the terrorist attacks or downplaying the gravity of what happened that day. but face facts. we've done more harm to ourselves as a nation than any militant islamists ever will.

quote by unkokusai>
"Don't you see how all that hyperbole makes it hard to take you seriously? "Yeah man, yeah!" among other extreme liberals might make you feel good but its all masturbation.

"What I say is a fact, and if you don't agree you are a zombie/pawn/fool/etc." is pointless and precludes any further discussion. I like the "Do a little world traveling" bit! Classic liberal attitude, as if no one who has "seen the world" could possibly disagree with their 'enlightened' view."

the very first comment you made was an insult to every belief thats been expressed on this thread. so dont try to play the victim now. i bet you dont even know the political affiliation of even half the posters in this thread but yet you dismissively attempt to label everyone liberals. dont point fingers and whine about the actions you used in your very first post to look down on everyone, without actually trying to debate any of the issues you supposedly disagree with.

[FuXnDajenariht]

quote by Merryprankster>
"The bill passing is the truth. What it means, w/respect to impact is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, no matter how wrong it is."

well for 1. prove that my opinions are wrong. debate is the hallmark of the democratic process after all.


quote by Merryprankster>
"And you made this thread because you felt a need to voice your opinion, which is fine. But you certainly didn't do it "for people angry enough to do sumthin about it." "

and 2 i do infact plan to do sumthin about it. whatever i can. whatever is in my ability to do. im gonna write my state representative. im gonna make as many people as i can aware of this. hell ill protest if i need to. its the American way. whatever is necessary. most importantly im gonna make my vote count come election time. i hope everyone else does the same.


quote by Merryprankster>
"I am appalled at the bill. I have nothing but continued remorse and disgust for this administration. It has managed to make the strategically and tactically wrong decisions at almost every crucial juncture.

But that does NOT mean the system is imploding. It does NOT mean my rights have evaporated, and it does NOT mean we are a police state. People throw that term, or raise its spectre, around so much - and with absolutely NO basis for doing so, nor with any idea what that entails."


if im wrong which i know im not, then it'll vindicate everything that you've just said.

[FuXnDajenariht]

I didn't actually call anyone names. That's your own addition. Not part of my argument.

Again, what part of my "hyperbole" is not true? A little projection here? You are the one throwing add hominems around. You entered the thread with one and you are finishing up this post with one. "liberal hysteria", "classic liberal attitude". Can't attack the argument so you attack the person.

Why is international travel a "liberal" activity? Never heard that before. You've done some. Does that make you a "classic liberal"?

I didn't realize that civil liberties were a "liberal value". So the conservative position is that they aren't that important? *scratches head*

How is radical restructuring of our legal system, elimination of something as fundamental as habeas corpus a conservative move? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Put away your rolling eyes and your ad hominem attacks and see if you actually have anything to say on the argument. So far all we've got from your end is smileys and name calling.

omar is right. who says liberalism is a bad thing? im not a liberal, but i'm also not a conversative, and i respect some of the beliefs of both parties. i respect plenty of conservatives and conversative ideas. but certainly not those of this administration nor most of the politicians currectly in office. i dont believe they represent either side. and they make a mockery of both. i believe people have fairly centrist and moderate views covering the entire political spectrum. but the problems is the ones with extreme views are currently in power.

[FuXnDajenariht]

this is the kind of insanity thats going on in the world right now. im not naive or irrational enough to think that the United States caused this travesty. thats just silly and irresonsible. but i do believe Congress signing this bill sets a bad precedent and poor example for the rest of the world. and it certainly wont help things like this from happening in the future.

Judge: Ethiopian forces killed 193 unarmed protesters

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

"NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) -- A senior Ethiopian judge appointed by his government to investigate election-related unrest says security forces shot, beat and strangled to death 193 unarmed protesters last year."

[unkokusai]

Why is international travel a "liberal" activity? .

Yeah, that was the point. It's NOT, but some folks speak of it as if it were. As if traveling MUST have the magical ability to "open the eyes" to the unquestionable truth of the divine liberal vision."

[unkokusai]

quote by unkokusai>
"So if we caught him all other terrorists would just disappear like magic?"

if we went about the entire military offense the correct way, yes. .

Ok, that's about all I need to know about you.

[FuXnDajenariht]

im not gonna feed into it unkokusai. if you dont wanna have a civilized conversation and only use personal attacks as a diversion. then your right. we dont need to be communicating at all. and you dont need to be a part of this thread either. its too bad you had to resort to trolling.

[omarthefish]

*groan*

Now Unkokusai is making legitimate points. blech. Not really a counterpoint to what I was saying but he's right there. I feel so......used.

omar is right. who says liberalism is a bad thing? im not a liberal, but i'm also not a conversative, and i respect some of the beliefs of both parties. i respect plenty of conservatives and conversative ideas. but certainly not those of this administration nor most of the politicians currectly in office. i dont believe they represent either side. and they make a mockery of both. i believe people have fairly centrist and moderate views covering the entire political spectrum. but the problems is the ones with extreme views are currently in power.

*sigh*

This is what I mean. I wasn't actually advocating liberalism. Apparently it came off like that. Even though I AM a liberal (by todays standards) my point about getting outside the fishbowl of the USA had nothing to do with "broadening horizons" or understanding other cultures. This thing is waaaaay beyong "liberal vs. conservative". True conservatives are just as ****ed.

I just meant that when you need to get out of the country to really see and feel how we are viewed from the outside. Live without Fox and the other US media sources for a bit. I was only reffering to one single aspect, the fact that the US is not longer any kind of heroic image. I watched it change. When I came to China in 2000, the US was still symbolic of all that is good. I was proud to announce that I was American. Chinese were excited to be friends with a "real live American". The Japanese, Korean and European people who I was studying Chinese with at Waiyuan all pretty much had universally positive views of us "yanks" even if some of the Europeans probably thought they were much cooler.

That has all changed in the short short span of 6 years. Nobody is excited to meet Americans anymore. People approach shyly now and ask me things with hesitation. They ask me if they can ask a "sensitive questipn". People used to ask me about food and movies and rock&roll. Now they ask me about Bush and war and why do we like to fight so much.

At home there is a debate. Abroad, everyone knows Bush is the bad guy. There's not debate. There's nobody out here supporting his actions. It's not democrat vs. republican. It's "American conservatives" vs. everyone else in the world.

[FuXnDajenariht]

is anyone else watching the townhall meeting on CNN hosted by Lou Dobbs?

that man tells it like it is.