1986 NHB Sparring

[Knifefighter]

It wasn't until AFTER the first 3 that people looked up and noticed. I mean really, I would have picked much better people to attend those if I thought the entirety of kung fu's image rode on the backs of those poor retards that went first. Win or lose it would have been a much better show.

It's been a long time since UFC 3. Since "kung fu's image" could have easily been raised by doing well in these events, shouldn't the "much better people" have shown up by now?

[TenTigers]

two things-the people that fought in the early UFC's were for the most part,tournament fighters. Although there are many tough, hard tournament fighters,they were completely unprepared for the techniques as well as the level of contact-which I found surprising. I would have thought they would do some research before climbing into the cage, but we all saw it. One guy threw the typical shuffle roundhouses, backfists, and then got trashed. He even turned and ran. The "Kung-Fu" guy was totally unprepared as well as his actual Kung-Fu being, well-questionable.
Now,15 years later the sport has developed. The fighters are well versed in their ground game as well as their stand-up. oh yeah, and many of these guys are freakin HUGE. Just as basketball players are tall and lanky, football players are huge, UFC guys have created the ideal athletic body type for the sport-big, hard,muscular guys. The smaller guys are still built like brick sh1thouses.
The second thing-I have no answer why Kung-Fu guys aren't seen in UFC.
One reason may be because of the movies, David Carradine,wu-shu,videogames and the artfulness of the forms as well as all the kewl weapons, Kung-Fu attracts a clientele that has a high percentage of "fringe" people. We get alot of artists, musicians, and alot of people that buy into the whole aforementioned crap. These people are also most likely to be persuing other interests, such as Star Trek Conventions, Rennaisance Fairs, and Dungeons and Dragons. Others are probably into Falun Gong.
I'm not saying everyone who is attracted to Kung-Fu is a flake, but if there is a flake out there, and he is standing in front of two schools, one, a MMA school and the other a Kung-Fu school, odds are he's gonna wanna swing a Quandao and do a tornado kick, rather than roll.
Personally, I have a very small school. I have had only a few who wanted to go that route. One due to a falling out, is actually still persuing this and fights Full Contact. The other, although he wanted to do UFC, he went to college, got a girlfriend...you know the story. There were others, but life got in the way.
With larger schools, you have more to choose from.
I really think it is Kung-Fu's image rather than the actual art itself. There are many schools that train hard, have hard contact,fight all the time, but for the most part, these are the more "underground" schools. The larger schools that also train this way, I can't speak for. But I'm listening,,,,

[lkfmdc]

It's been a long time since UFC 3. Since "kung fu's image" could have easily been raised by doing well in these events, shouldn't the "much better people" have shown up by now?

Teh way I see it, and who knows, I could be wrong but CMA people who were interested in fighting were interested in being better. They weren't interested in an absurd concept like "my style is best"....

Do you know Tim Cartmell (sp) or Shen Wu? CMA guy who also is a pretty good BJJ guy now. Think maybe by now he has his black belt? Does a really nice combo of CMA for stand up and BJJ for ground.

Most of the Combat Shuai Jiao people I know have done some BJJ

There's my gym....

The ironly is, none of the above are "raising the rep" because according to the "kung fu guys" were aren't doing CMA

[Faruq]

I've heard about such underground schools (Bak Mei Pai at least) here in Chicago's Chinatown, but they don't allow the gwai lo to enter, learn or even watch. Though very effective, I don't think their techniques would be allowed in Pride or UFC anyway. Who wants to leave a competition missing an eye or trachea? Broken knee or elbow anyone?

I really think it is Kung-Fu's image rather than the actual art itself. There are many schools that train hard, have hard contact,fight all the time, but for the most part, these are the more "underground" schools. The larger schools that also train this way, I can't speak for. But I'm listening,,,,

[Knifefighter]

I've heard about such underground schools (Bak Mei Pai at least) here in Chicago's Chinatown, but they don't allow the gwai lo to enter, learn or even watch. Though very effective, I don't think their techniques would be allowed in Pride or UFC anyway. Who wants to leave a competition missing an eye or trachea? Broken knee or elbow anyone?

Once again, the old, " techniques that are too deadly to practice, but would somehow disable all the MMA fighters if they are were ever used for real" excuse.

Here's a link to someone who only practiced deadly techniques who had an open challenge and what happened when he fought a MMA guy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...d+martial+arts

[Ray Pina]

That original video was not no rules... in every case the action was stopped as soon as someone went down. And guys were going down from initial points of contact.

Nice to see more than point sparring, but my students spar more heavily than that in class every week.... they nor I are ready for the UFC.

Better than most Kung Fu video clips, but still nothing that great. Lot of guys with weight back and uncommitted getting taken out by one committed move and then stopped.

[Knifefighter]

Teh way I see it, and who knows, I could be wrong but CMA people who were interested in fighting were interested in being better. They weren't interested in an absurd concept like "my style is best"....

Sorry, not buying that one.

All you have to do is look at this thread and others like it to see all the CMA guys who so adamantly defend the "my style is best" concept.

CMA guys are just as likely as anyone else to buy into this concept. They are just less likely to put those thoughts into actions.

[Knifefighter]

I really think it is Kung-Fu's image rather than the actual art itself.

You can't separate the image, the students and the art itself. They are all interweaved.

MMA and BJJ attract aggressive and competitive individuals, which makes the arts more hard core and strengthens the systems as a whole.

Kung fu systems tend to attract a "softer" crowd, which have made the arts weaker and weaker to the point that even an aggressive, competitive athlete will be hard-pressed to reach his potential with them.

There are many schools that train hard, have hard contact,fight all the time, but for the most part, these are the more "underground" schools.

That may be true.
If so, those are not the schools I am critizing.

[SevenStar]

I've heard about such underground schools (Bak Mei Pai at least) here in Chicago's Chinatown, but they don't allow the gwai lo to enter, learn or even watch. Though very effective, I don't think their techniques would be allowed in Pride or UFC anyway. Who wants to leave a competition missing an eye or trachea? Broken knee or elbow anyone?

since you mentioned missing eyes, eye gouges were NOT illegal in early UFCs, although they were a foul. If your opponent couldn't continue, you still advanced to the next round, but were fined. Only once that I know of was there a successful eye gouge, and that guy still went on the win his match, even though he really couldn't see.

[lkfmdc]

Sorry, not buying that one.

All you have to do is look at this thread and others like it to see all the CMA guys who so adamantly defend the "my style is best" concept.

CMA guys are just as likely as anyone else to buy into this concept. They are just less likely to put those thoughts into actions.

Knife fighter, you missed what I really said....

"CMA people who were interested in fighting were interested in being better"

IE not all CMA people, but rather the REAL fighting ones, those guys, were interested in being better, not the style concept

[Faruq]

Ray, I didn't know you were also a teacher. This is the first time I can remember you mentioning having students. That's great, and your actual combat focus'll be great for your students!

That original video was not no rules... in every case the action was stopped as soon as someone went down. And guys were going down from initial points of contact.

Nice to see more than point sparring, but my students spar more heavily than that in class every week.... they nor I are ready for the UFC.

Better than most Kung Fu video clips, but still nothing that great. Lot of guys with weight back and uncommitted getting taken out by one committed move and then stopped.

[SevenStar]

He's mentioned it before... If I remember right, he has two of them.

[fiercest tiger]

http://z.5t.cn/show/video_2549.html

Some of these are quite good and on the street would have ended it right there and then!

comments?

FT

[TenTigers]

Knifighter sez,"That may be true.
If so, those are not the schools I am critizing."
yeah, I wasn't really posting at anyone in particular, and we seem to basically agree. I;m just venting.

"MMA and BJJ attract aggressive and competitive individuals, which makes the arts more hard core and strengthens the systems as a whole.

"Kung fu systems tend to attract a "softer" crowd, which have made the arts weaker and weaker to the point that even an aggressive, competitive athlete will be hard-pressed to reach his potential with them."

I tend to agree, with one difference,

"Kung fu systems tend to attract a "softer" crowd, which have made the schools themselves, weaker and weaker to the point that even an aggressive, competitive athlete will be hard-pressed to reach his potential within them."

There are schools out there doing it, but definately not enough to make a dent in the pile of horsesh!t that's out there passing for TCMA.