Loong Ying and Pak Mei

[mantis108]

Who do you mean? The first guy? If so, well ... When a guy's head bobbing back and forth like that it's a tell tale sign of how much sparring experience that he has. Also that's a sign that he is seriously lacking in understanding the principles of Hakka styles in general.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Mantis 108,

Yeah, thats what i thought!

Thanks mate
FT

[bocmei]

Hi I am new new to this forum. I have posted numerous times in other forums and might have posted comments to Yum Cha before. I am not to familiar with other Hakka styles but from my perspective on the mans head movement (performing Sam Tong) clearly his eyes were following his fists causing his head movement to bounce down and back up again.

Other than that I feel that his performance had good flow and his head movement was just style.


Bocmei

No promises but I will try and post Mai Yu Qiang Luos form of him performing a combination Bak Mei / Lung Ying hybrid form that he developed himself. Just need time to upload to YouTube.

[Juan Nowon]

Hey Bill,
I understand what you are talking about. Its almost like a mindlessness, where your body moves the instant you anticipate. Almost like "sensitivity" training, where you're not sure if it is touch or thought that triggers your movement. No active thought, just a sense of being and time and movement.

Naaa, not what I mean.

Dragon style, when we train our Ying Jau Lin Que which was (and I am repeating myself, I apologise) taught to Si Gung from Lam Yeu Gwai, we use a different "energy". Dragon power, a full body, comprehensive, overwhelming committment. Not an anger, but a possession of fearsome power. More like a God than a mortal.

Pak Mei forms have more of a rage, a destructive, merciless committment. I find the Dragon energy more aloof whereas I find the Pak Mei energy more demonic, closer to evil. There is no mercy.

Maybe the difference between Tiger and Dragon energy if you play 5 animals lore?

Of course, I could simply be my own neurotic skirts showing....I'd be really keen to hear from some other Loong Ying Players

Yum Cha-

Like you, Im no expert in Lung Ying, Ive only practced (LY) for about three years so my knowledge of the "energy" were talking about here is rather limted. I myself have not been able to achieve the "godlike" dragon energy. When playing the dragon the whole body knock down power is what we like to use... although it isnt easy getting use to this power, it is quite effective. It feels like nothing and it looks like nothing but it is definitly SOMETHING.

From the small amout of Pak Mei Ive seen, most of the practitioners (except for a few) are very fierce, like they are out for blood (I hope they know when/how to turn it off). I know both BM and LY are "fighting arts", however sometimes there is "to much" energy displaced, just my novice opinion.

[mantiskilla]

Juan---


Who is your teacher? Just curious as there are not too many of us (Lung Ying) out there.

Bill
________
HALFBAKED

[Juan Nowon]

Juan---


Who is your teacher? Just curious as there are not too many of us (Lung Ying) out there.

Bill

Mantis Killa

I left a PM in response to the above question.

Your right, there are not to many practicing Lung Ying.

[nyhakka]

I too train in LY, and there aren't many of us out there because they "old guys" choose to try and stay out of the public. And not due to us having the secret style as most claim, but because of a desire to stay away from the politics of the kung fu world. We got enough politics in our own family...

That "Godlike" power spoken of in LY is the most important element to the style, as it give us the ability to persue our opponent relentlessly, expounding a minimal amount of energy. It is the "internal" component of the style, and the use of full body cooperation(breathing, motion, coordination, mind) is half the point. This energy generation is the other half and they should be interdependent on each other. The idea is to draw energy from heaven and earth, sink the energy into the Dan Tien, then express the energy through will. In essence, a Dragon is an imaginary beast, being a tiger and a snake with wings, and therefore all the principles of air, water, fire,ether, and earth are all characteristics of the the style. The lower body is yang while the upper body is Yin, and both must harmonize to express the Tao of Lung Ying.
Hope this helps a bit!!

[Juan Nowon]

I too train in LY, and there aren't many of us out there because they "old guys" choose to try and stay out of the public. And not due to us having the secret style as most claim, but because of a desire to stay away from the politics of the kung fu world. We got enough politics in our own family...

That "Godlike" power spoken of in LY is the most important element to the style, as it give us the ability to persue our opponent relentlessly, expounding a minimal amount of energy. It is the "internal" component of the style, and the use of full body cooperation(breathing, motion, coordination, mind) is half the point. This energy generation is the other half and they should be interdependent on each other. The idea is to draw energy from heaven and earth, sink the energy into the Dan Tien, then express the energy through will. In essence, a Dragon is an imaginary beast, being a tiger and a snake with wings, and therefore all the principles of air, water, fire,ether, and earth are all characteristics of the the style. The lower body is yang while the upper body is Yin, and both must harmonize to express the Tao of Lung Ying.
Hope this helps a bit!!

Greetings nyhakka-

Thank you for the above post, I hope you (and others familiar with LY) can elaborate more on expressing the energy ("energy" can have many meanings) through the will in laymans terms. For the reason that I havn't studied LY for a very long duration of time, a lot of these concepts from above seem obscure to me. Our teacher actually seems to steer us away from the Taoist philosophy that so many are fond of, we seem to have a more nuts and bolts type of approach .

I have read, on various LY webpages, about concepts similar to what you have posted here, I guess I should ponder the meaning(s) in more depth... My Western Mind seems to inhibit deep thought (lol). Or I havn't put enough time into my practice to develop a philosophy of Dragon style. Oh well, Id better go do some work.

Thanks again.

[nyhakka]

There could be many reasons your sifu steers you away from the Taoist thought in the style. But I believe IMO that this will hinder your development in the latter parts of the style, as the most important component to the style is the power generation which is developed from an "Internal" perspective rather than an "External" one. Also, when it comes to the fighting in the style, being that it's a close quarter style the internal expression is very important.

But don't worry. As i said the internal component is built into the style, and you may actually be learning it and not know it as yet. It's true some sifus don't know the internal expression of the style(as in many other styles) but as long as your sifu is teaching you to uutilize all the tools of the style then stick with it! PM me and we can chat more in detail about it. Who's your sifu?

[Southern Fist]

Juan

Nuts and Bolts are good since they are the foundation and basics of the style.
Be patient and train the style more then understand it at first.

As my Hing-dai nyHakka mention if your sifu is teaching you the basics then you are on the right track.

[nyhakka]

Well said!

[The Xia]

Dragon style, when we train our Ying Jau Lin Que which was (and I am repeating myself, I apologise) taught to Si Gung from Lam Yeu Gwai, we use a different "energy". Dragon power, a full body, comprehensive, overwhelming committment. Not an anger, but a possession of fearsome power. More like a God than a mortal.

Pak Mei forms have more of a rage, a destructive, merciless committment. I find the Dragon energy more aloof whereas I find the Pak Mei energy more demonic, closer to evil. There is no mercy.

Maybe the difference between Tiger and Dragon energy if you play 5 animals lore?

Of course, I could simply be my own neurotic skirts showing....I'd be really keen to hear from some other Loong Ying Players

ttt for more discussion on this.

[bredmond812]

FWIW,

As i recall, when i studied BM and LY, my sifu said that lung ying was more about power, and Bak mei was more about quick combonations. But i dont want to misrepresent my old sifu, so dont quote me.

Also, to Yum Cha's analogy between the whole Tiger/Dragon of 5 animals fame, I think that Pak Mei is said to have elements of Tiger in it, and LY is, well, Dragon.

B Red

[Southern Fist]

I train both styles and at first I also felt that they were different in energy and tecnique execution.

But, know I feel they are the same as shown to me by my Sifu.

Lung Ying and Pak Mei have many similar techniques when fighting quick and flowing. But, while demonstrating the sets. Both styles have a different flow and energy output.

Pak Mei has the five animals concept or element. The Tiger is seen and done more in techniques secondary to its ferocity and aggresiveness.

As stated Pak Mei is "Demonic", "Merciless", "Destructive"

IMO All martial arts when fighting are demonic, merciless,and destructive even Tai Ji.

Lung Ying also has the Tiger element making it aggresive.

But, it is the practitioner rather then the technique which makes it ferocious.

Lung Ying is "Demonic", "Merciless", "Destructive" just as much as Pak Mei.

For example You have techniques like Soi Kiu "Breaking Bridge"
which the bridge is your opponents forearm, leg, humerus,even side of the neck.

Bui Gim "Back Sword" where the practitioner blocks the opponents arm or leg down while simultaneously striking full force to the opponents jugular vein in the neck or hip pelvis area.

Dragon concept or element is flexible, smooth adaptible to any situation in a fight or technique.

Both Styles are equal in effectiveness and ferocity. It is the practitioners spirit which will make it Demonic or gentle.


Peter Pena

[4 Dragons]

Any Dragon people teaching in the Seattle area?