UFC rules and TMA

[Mr Punch]

It's all irrelevant: If you want to enter a sporting competition you have to follow the rules.

What are you telling us? That if you go into a sports ring you're not going to be able to win without grabbing someone's clavicle? That it's going to cramp your style? Be serious, what proportion of your art is clavicle grabbing?

And given that it takes a lot less time and accuracy to punch somebody (even to punch them in the clavicle area but especially say, somewhere useful like their head) how often do you think a clavicle grab will come up over a punch?

So what your grip has a 130 whatevers: numbers don't mean anything if you don't follow KISS! And strategically it makes no sense: while you're faffing about with flappy slappy punches with the aim of setting up the clavicle grab, you could have been knocking him out!

Doesn't mean you're not going to be able to use it in the street where the environmental difficulties, elements of surprise and fitness come into it, but if you think not being able to grab somebody's clavicle will cause a serious disadvantage to you in a ring fight, your system is silly!

If we give you the benefit of the doubt and add up ALL THESE FACTORS maybe you would have a point, except again for the fact that they all require a set-up to deliver them. And, if you're so concerned with the two-three-or-more move set-ups, you're going to be missing the opportunity to hit him with a jab-cross-hook, or jab-cross-uppercut, that could KO him in half the time! And if you're talking on the ground, well how does your style's groundwork match up against college wrestling or JJ, or even judo groundwork?

I'd love to find a competition that allows head-butts. Every single session I've been having recently has involved the set-up and delivery of a head-butt, which are very simple and easy to find, quick and devastating. I like them, and I consider them a core part of wing chun. Ditto elbows: I use elbows all the time and in Shooto (which is would be the easiest competition for me to enter over here with anything like NHB rules) there are now no elbows.

So if I want to compete I have to find another venue which may be difficult. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to use my other skills in the ring. It's a simple choice.

Conversely, I don't see how some of these MMAers can say that I'm making excuses for my style. Of course I want to use what I've got: I have 2 feet, 2 knees, 2 elbows, 2 hands, 1 head - so out of 9 basic weapons I can only use 6: two-thirds of my arsenal (3/4 if you take the head out on the basis that it's very short range - but it's still difficult).

But this comes back to your clavicle grabs/fat grabs: I don't see how you can compare specialized attacks like those to bread-and-butter strikes.

[Mr Punch]

Don't under estimate the value of "biting". If you can bite one of your opponent's fingers off then the fight could end right there. Bite the moment you feel that you are going down with your opponent, and don't try to bite after your opponent got an arm bar on you.

How to train "biting"?

Beginner level - Get a raw pig leg and try to sink your teeth all the way through the bone.
Intermediate level - Try to bite a live dog's leg or rattle snake's head off.
Advance level - Go to the zoo and train with any live lion or tiger.

After you have passed all three level of training, you may face any MMA guys without fear.

BWUHAHAHAHA!

YouKnowWho: it's been a long time and just when the Best Troll thread comes up too!

1) You ain't gonna bite in the ring cos it's against the rules.
2) I sure as hell ain't gonna bite in the street cos it's against common sense re health.

You're a freak.

[YouKnowWho]

Try to have some sense of humor guys. I don't believe US has any law that's against joking around on the internet.

[Mr Punch]

Fair enough. That was **** funny then!

[Samurai Jack]

Gotta play devil's advocate here:

I watched the entire set of "Classic UFC" dvd's the other day. It was completly awesome, and totally different than what you see nowadays. I have no doubt whatsoever that most of the MMA guys competing wouldn't last in the old "No Rules" format.

I watched Tank Abbot brutally fishhooking a helpless Oleg Tokterov.

I watched Frank Shamrock punching some guy in the groin until he submitted.

I watched a much smaller man headbutt a 6'8" 400lbs. man for a knockout. (without this technique he'd have lost for sure)

I watched numerous matches end in knockouts from the proscribed fouls, and wrist and finger locks used to be a staple of several fighters...

I practice Aikido, and small joint manipulations are an important part of my art. If punches were considered foul nobody would be claiming that boxers were whiners for complaining about it. So why disparage the traditionalists who train different skills than the MMA guy?

The fouls are "Foul" because they work exceptionally well against anyone. The fouls level the field, they are fight enders. If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn't be illegal, and they wouldn't have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).

Claiming that you can easily beat someone on the street who isn't playing by your rules becase you can roll on a mat makes you just as deluded as the TMA guy who thinks he's "too deadly for competition".

[Yum Cha]

Mantis 108 - "Dirty Fighting" ??? DUDE!!!

Sorry, in my humble opinion, "dirty fighting" is well within the bounds of Kung Fu

Now, in a sporting context, breaking the rules in bad form, that is why its called sport, fair enough, but no such thing as dirty fighting in my book, when your life is on the line. If you can't just walk away, then you take control and you end it. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chance you'll get hurt.

Punch,

As for gripping strength and effectiveness, a classic example of a skill a gloved fighter can't use. Grapplers probably appreciate it a bit more, but it can be a fight ender. I'm not talking silly, about ripping hunks of flesh out, more along the lines of taking arms out of action momentarially, and chin na.

There's a saying, "once I get my hands on you, you're mine." Bridge fighting relies on sticking, and grip is a good sticky technique.

So, TCMA isn't suited to sport fighting. So what! Old news.

[lkfmdc]

So, I guess it's time to dig up "John Marsh vs San Soo kung fu" guy clip since that fight had no rules. Mr San Soo tried to eye gouge, grab hair, etc.... if I remember correctly, Mr San Soo said he was gonna take an eye out BEFORE THE FIGHT

Of course, stuck on the bottom and with no idea how to escape, it all became a moot point.

Again, you'd all be better served working take down defenses and how to get back on your feet from your back than relying on biting , gouging, clavicle grabbing, etc etc etc

[Knifefighter]

And people wonder why I deride kung fu guys.

It's really hard to keep from busting out laughing when reading some of this stuff from people who's closest encounter with MMA is to see it on television.

Try to fight someone who has strong hand squeezing power (130lbs or more in one hand). They can EASILY dislocate the clavicle.

Too funny.,
Give me a break.
How many clavicles have you dislocated by grabbing and squeezing them?
Talk about clueless.

Of course not! TMA can be used, you just can't do certain techniques.

And those are the same techniques that the MMA fighters are not allowed to use either. Imagine how much worse it would be for the TMA fighters if the MMA fighters were allowed to use those techniques against the TMA fighters... there would be quite a few deaths in the ring.

I have no doubt whatsoever that most of the MMA guys competing wouldn't last in the old "No Rules" format.

Um... did you hear about the Royce Gracie/Matt Hughes fight? Royce, who uses pretty much the same tools he used in the early UFC's to destroy the TMA guys, was schooled by Matt, a modern-day MMA figher.

Let a modern MMA fighter use all the restricted tools that he is currently banned from using and he would literally kill many TMA guys.

If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn't be illegal, and they wouldn't have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).

The reason they were banned was to protect the TMA guys who were already getting beaten so badly. The MMA guys who were beginnig to use a variety of modern training and fighting methods were doing some serious damage to the more traditional guys. There was serious concern that a clueless TMA guy would enter the competition and get killed in the ring.

One of the early controversies among the promoters of the UFC was if the more restrictive rules were actually giving the TMA guys more of an advantage by making it harder for the more combat sports oriented fighters to beat them. Restriction of elbow strikes was a huge controversy, since this was a main tool of the BJJ guys.

As for gripping strength and effectiveness, a classic example of a skill a gloved fighter can't use.

Have you trained with MMA gloves? They don't affect one's grip at all.

Grapplers probably appreciate it a bit more, but it can be a fight ender. more along the lines of taking arms out of action momentarially,

No... grapplers know how stupid and ineffective trying to end a fight by "take someone's arm out of action" by grabbing it is, since that is perfectly legal in wrestling and submission grappling competitions.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think the reason many Kung Fu and other TMA practioners continue to beat the dead horse is that many refuse to accept that their style of Kung Fu may be incomplete. By incomplete I mean there is no grappling and no submissions(at least realistic ones ) and even their stand up may be lacking due to improper sparring tactics. Recently I had a student from another Kung Fu style come to my school to train while he was in college(our school is located on campus). He has 18 months of training from this style under his belt, so I allowed him to spar with other students and the instructors. At his previous school he sparred without pads, which I think creates bad habits because regardless you will pull much of your technique. With proper gear you can go at least 75 percent without too much of an injury risk. He was not used to the level of contact, especially at the head where they did not hit while sparring. Also the only submission training they did was pressure point and some Chi Na. When some of us rolled he was very uncomfortable and asked me to roll with him and that he wanted to try the pressure points to see how they worked. I did and when we went to the ground I got side control and then full mount. I didn't do anything but hold him there while he tried numerous pressure points on me, none of which worked. Afterwards, I and my/our grappling coach explained to him about dominant positioning and how difficult it is to pull off pressure points once someone has you in that position. The point of all this is that if you have not been exposed to the reality of what fighting is you will not know. Most people in the case I just spoke of would accept that their is more to learn or go into denial about it. As for the student I spoke of, he is very receptive and is using what he is learning from us with what he learned from his previous training, some of which was good. So this is not a knock on his style of Kung Fu, because just like mine, it lacked ground fighting and submissions. It does go to show, however, that if you have not been exposed to this kind of fighting and training, you will continue to think that poking someone in the eye or grabbing them by the sack is the be all, end all of techniques. Unfortunately for them, this is rarely the case.

[SevenStar]

The fouls are "Foul" because they work exceptionally well against anyone. The fouls level the field, they are fight enders. If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn't be illegal, and they wouldn't have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).

Claiming that you can easily beat someone on the street who isn't playing by your rules becase you can roll on a mat makes you just as deluded as the TMA guy who thinks he's "too deadly for competition".

nah, not really. groin shots aren't necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I've been kicked there and didn't feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

In the old vale tudo, gerard gordeau DID eye gouge yuki nakai. Yuki won the fight anyway with a heel hook. He went on to also beat his next opponent and fight in the finals. However, nakai is now blind in one eye. THAT is why these things are outlawed - the permanent damage they can cause.

[gabe]

Samurai Jack,
Excellent post.

KF,
"The reason they were banned was to protect the TMA guys who were already getting beaten so badly. The MMA guys who were beginnig to use a variety of modern training and fighting methods were doing some serious damage to the more traditional guys. There was serious concern that a clueless TMA guy would enter the competition and get killed in the ring."

The UFC banned headbutts to protect TMA guys? Headbutts only work against TMAists? "too deadly?"

You don't see situations in the UFC today, with all the modern training and fighting methods used, where headbutts would work? How about the small finger joint manipulations, a UFC competitor I met said they are for the most part banned as well. Not useful? Too deadly? Ineffective in the real world? Fingers are not accessible in grappling situations? Headbutts?

"clueless TMA guy?" When would he ever succeed? Or are all TMA guys clueless? Heh.

[gabe]

nah, not really. groin shots aren't necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I've been kicked there and didn't feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

In the old vale tudo, gerard gordeau DID eye gouge yuki nakai. Yuki won the fight anyway with a heel hook. He went on to also beat his next opponent and fight in the finals. However, nakai is now blind in one eye. THAT is why these things are outlawed - the permanent damage they can cause.

I would have thought eye gouges wouldn't work in the real world! They're banned because they are too deadly?

[lkfmdc]

Again, who is in the position to use gouging, biting, head butts, stomping, etc

The guy on the BOTTOM, or teh guy on the TOP?

Come on, this isn't a hard question....

[Royal Dragon]

nah, not really. groin shots aren't necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I've been kicked there and didn't feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

Reply]
Is there a ban on wearing cups in the MMA realm?
I would think that a cup would make a groin punch pretty useless. I have taken full KICKs to the groin, and due to the cup it just slowed me for a moment while I grabbed the opponents kne and knocked him over.

Of course I fell down with him, and didn't know what to do, so i stood back up again, but that is moot. In a real fight that kick would have floored me, and probably killed any future descendants before they were concived. what I would have done on the ground if I had ground skills, would never have mattered in the relm of reality, because I don't wear a cup as I go about my daily life.

[gabe]

Again, who is in the position to use gouging, biting, head butts, stomping, etc

The guy on the BOTTOM, or teh guy on the TOP?

Come on, this isn't a hard question....

Ummm, well, I would hazard a guess that biting, gouging or headbutts might be the only option at times for the guy on the bottom. It's either that or be a victim of the ground and pound. Unless you can get out of it of course. Of course, the guy on top is perfectly capable of bending down and biting and gouging and headbutting too. Not pretty but.....