UFC rules and TMA

[lkfmdc]

Ummm, well, I would hazard a guess that biting, gouging or headbutts might be the only option at times for the guy on the bottom.

No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at "Mr San Soo" who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually

Of course, the guy on top is perfectly capable of bending down and biting and gouging and headbutting too. Not pretty

BINGO! We have a winner

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ring = rules
Street = no rules.. worse, no weight classes, nothing to prevent multiple attackers, no restriction on weapons.. and, not much mercy in the courts..

TCMA, TMA, MMA, Escrima, Muay Thai, whatever.. on any given day, under almost any circumstances.. the better person wins, not the better style.. though, the person can represent a style.. styles don't fight, people do..

We have chosen violent paths, anything beyond that is a consequence of the choice..

Winning it all in a controlled match is not the goal.. living past 90 and dying from a jealous young husband's bullet is the goal..

Be well

[Royal Dragon]

only 90?

Ur such a wuss!

A true Kung Fu exponent would have said 108

[Chief Fox]

No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at "Mr San Soo" who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually

BINGO! We have a winner

Personal experience;
I was in a fight in college. Well, I got attacked and it turned into a fight. Anyway, the guy took me down and got me in a guilotine but it wasn't locked in. I reached up, put both of my thumbs in his eyes and pressed. I said very calmly, "if you don't let go, I'm going to rip your eyes out". He let go. I then had superior position and was able to bounce his head off of the floor.

Eye gouges work. But there's a time and a place just like everything else.

[Knifefighter]

The UFC banned headbutts to protect TMA guys? Headbutts only work against TMAists? "too deadly?"

You don't see situations in the UFC today, with all the modern training and fighting methods used, where headbutts would work? How about the small finger joint manipulations, a UFC competitor I met said they are for the most part banned as well. Not useful? Too deadly? Ineffective in the real world? Fingers are not accessible in grappling situations? Headbutts?

Of course, all of those techniques can potentially be used. However, all of the "deadly" techniques are even more deadly when used by someone who has a very good delivery system... they are icing on the cake. Those are all things that someone can do if they are good. Someone who has a really good delivery system (punches, kicks, knees, clinch and ground) will be much more effective in using these techniques against someone with a less effective system.

The UFC promotors were originally worried about the guys (mostly TMA) who didn't have very effective delivery systems getting severely hurt or killed by those who had the effective delivery systems if the later used the "dirty" techniques on them.

As it is, all of the fighters are now protected. But at the same time, all the fighters are also limited in their techniques- this includes the MMA fighters.

[mantis108]

Mantis 108 - "Dirty Fighting" ??? DUDE!!!

Sorry, in my humble opinion, "dirty fighting" is well within the bounds of Kung Fu

Now, in a sporting context, breaking the rules in bad form, that is why its called sport, fair enough, but no such thing as dirty fighting in my book, when your life is on the line. If you can't just walk away, then you take control and you end it. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chance you'll get hurt.

Well, my friend, I actually said "dirty tactics" which is all those biting, gouging, SJM etc. Those in my mind are emergency measures in an otherwise desperate "self defense" only situation and they don't constitute a delivery system. They might be an "integral" part of Kung Fu but real Kung Fu doesn't revolve around them. That is at least not in my book.

When my philiosophy is not to inflict permanent damage or other even more serious consequence during an altercation friendly or otherwise, I find it hard to encourage the use of dirty tactics. It is a personal choice. Kung Fu to me is not limited to self defense only although learning how to properly defend ourself is important and serious study. I do Kung Fu to make friends not to make enemies. I don't think causing permanent damage is ever going to achieve that. In a friendly match, I don't need people to fear that I might just snap and gouge their eyes out or bite off their ears (not saying I would be naive enough not to protect myself aganist those). To do so only tell others that I am merely an insecured child and would do anything to win which is just to keep my ego happy. That's not Kung Fu (we have professional sports for that)

The beginning of Kung Fu is to learn humility most of the time through humiliation. Humility (including learning about losing) leads to fluidity and fluidity rides rigidity. Whether it is Kung Fu (chin na in particular), Ju Jitsu, Judo, Aiki Jitsu, Aikido, etc, it's all about fluidity rides the rigidity. Using dirty tactics only to win a fight is a guarantee lost even if you win any which way you look at it. Karma never misses, my friend.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SifuAbel]

I have to agree with the fence hopping Ross. From the bottom, the foul rules are moot. The ones I highlighted are definatly for those on top or standing. SJM are banned because they may break holds and fingers if you're not carefull.

All the others I highlighted protect the guy on the bottom.

The problem with this perception of cma is two fold.

There are on one side the KnFitr style nuthuggers that want this to be 1998 forever and believe that people aren't sick to death of watching the same old tactics over and over again. That make blanket statements over entire populations because of the perceptions of some(see in the second paragraph). With, in his case, giant napoleon complexes. That can't see beyond their narrow stream of myopic vision past their paradigm of action.(that there is no variation to the steps in their fight A invariably is followed by B) That the UFC is the only measure of anything even though they themselves will never be on TV. And even in said UFC, things that they say are impossible then come to pass and it magically becomes acceptable. That measure even the very least player in CMA against the very top of thier venue even though there are as many crappy players under them as in all MA.

On the other side are the kung fu noobs that got caught up in the excuse game instead of just studying what is actually happening and what they can do to adjust, take down defense, approach control, hard contact striking, lengthening trigger zones, aiming , preserving continuity of attack, getting out of the shooting gallery duck syndrome, etc, etc. To these people I say there is lots more in your CMA arsenal than eye pokes and hair pulling. What are you going to do if the guy is shaved or in KF'ers case, bald? To these people I say stop looking to the internet for answers. Look in your skill.

Bottom line, the reason CMA isn't in MMA is mostly political. All other reasons are just abberations. There is no physical or tactical reason one in CMA couldn't go into MMA if that is one's desire. And that is the politics of it, People in CMA are being herded into other venues.

No matter how Ross tries to deny it, he is a CMA player making it work.

[gabe]

No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at "Mr San Soo" who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually



BINGO! We have a winner

You telling me you haven't seen any situation where the guy on top has his head in range for a nice juicy headbutt?

So the eye gouge sevenstar mentioned was part of that 1%? According to your theory, the eyegouge sevenstar mentioned should never have worked right?

And what are your statistics on biting based on?

Anybody can come up with situations where a technique doesn't work
But it's all in the execution. Really skilled fighters make the improbable work. So does chance and luck. And shockingly, so does hard training. Not all illegal techniques are impossible to train. Do some searches and you'll see plenty of improbable or so-called low percentage techniques working quite well.

The point is, just because some techniques are not suitable for the ring doesn't mean they are not effective. MMA will evolve according to rule sets, and those rule sets cut out a whole slew of techniques. Watch, more rules are coming. Some for safety, and some for entertainment value. It breaks my heart everytime a grappler works his butt off to get the other guy down only to have the ref arbitrarily stand them back up.

MMAists, the smart ones at least, will figure out every possible way to take advantage of those rules with respect to spacing, time limits, etc. And techniques that don't fall in that catagory will simply fade out.

[Knifefighter]

You telling me you haven't seen any situation where the guy on top has his head in range for a nice juicy headbutt?

Good luck trying to head butt someone who is on the top. Have you tried headbutting someone who has mount, side control, half-guard or, back control? Even with the guard, the top guy almost always has the advantage when headbutting is allowed.

[SifuAbel]

Mr. san soo got his becasue he was terrible.

BUT, mr. san soo isn't the utimate measure of anything.

[gabe]

Of course, all of those techniques can potentially be used. However, all of the "deadly" techniques are even more deadly when used by someone who has a very good delivery system... they are icing on the cake. Those are all things that someone can do if they are good. Someone who has a really good delivery system (punches, kicks, knees, clinch and ground) will be much more effective in using these techniques against someone with a less effective system.

The UFC promotors were originally worried about the guys (mostly TMA) who didn't have very effective delivery systems getting severely hurt or killed by those who had the effective delivery systems if the later used the "dirty" techniques on them.

As it is, all of the fighters are now protected. But at the same time, all the fighters are also limited in their techniques- this includes the MMA fighters.

KF,
I'm addressing the premise or assumption that techniques not used my MMAists are ineffective or useless. You've just buttressed my argument, which Ross is attempting to counter. Eyegouges and headbutts are effective and also illegal.

To succeed in MMA, you've got to conform to the rules. Maximize them to your advantage. But that doesn't mean that techniques outside the rules are ineffective and useless. MMA are just as susceptible to a headbutt as a tma'er. I don't get your point, those rules protect the MMAer just as much. Skilled MMAers, crappy ones, tma'ers, all of them need protection from a nice little headbutt while your standing up or on the bottom or on the top.

And no one is going to argue that you don't need an effective delivery system. Yes, they are all limited in what they can do in the ring, MMAist included. That's the point. Some skill sets are outside of those limitations while that is the world that MMAists thrive in, the good ones at least.

[Knifefighter]

That the UFC is the only measure of anything...

The UFC is only one measure... but it is a much more accurate measure than the one used by those who never venture outside of their comfy little training zones.

And even in said UFC, things that they say are impossible then come to pass and it magically becomes acceptable.

What's great about the UFC and other MMA venues is that they allow for evolution through full application. Since they are constantly testing techniques under fire and looking for advantages, they can take unworkable technques and modify them to the point where they become effective... however, this can only happen under the hard and brutal testing that comes from this type of training.

That measure even the very least player in CMA against the very top of thier venue even though there are as many crappy players under them as in all MA.

On of the best measures is the average practitioner vs. the average practitioner.

Bottom line, the reason CMA isn't in MMA is mostly political. All other reasons are just abberations. There is no physical or tactical reason one in CMA couldn't go into MMA if that is one's desire. And that is the politics of it, People in CMA are being herded into other venues.

The politics are that most CMA instructors have a vested interest in their students not competing in full-contact venues.

[SifuAbel]

Pft, pure spin. Include more of my post next time. I'm not even going to continue this line.

I will add one thing about your "evolution" arguement. If KFM had an archive that dated back far enough I could decimate you arguement with a thousand quotes YOU'VE made over the years. Talk about selective memory. UFC invented the roundkick.

[Golden Arms]

Ugh, some people on both sides of the fence are deluded. Just try it for yourself instead of supposing and you will know the answers, but I guess that is too much to ask?

10 year striker vs. 2 year grappler, the striker will win if he keeps it in his game 9/10 times

10 year grappler vs. 2 year striker, the grappler will win if he keeps it in his game 9/10 times

The bottom line is, if you devote a large part of your life to either, you like know more tricks than the average joe in your chosen skill set, and will be able to dominate them fairly well because of this. This point is rendered moot if you dont train realistically, but there ARE schools that train realistic striking, just as there are oblivious grappling schools.

I really dont think one is better than the other, they are just preferences. If you pick up buildings by nature, then grappling is going to come to you quick, and if you like pounding things into dust, then striking. If you dont have either in your nature, then you just have to train and see where the road takes you. There are really too many variables to make blanket statements, so why not just go do it yourself?

[Shaolinlueb]

At first, I agreed with most MMAist in this forum about CMAist crying about the rules in tournaments like UFC. However, after visiting the UFC website, I do not feel that UFC rules are good for a lot of TMA techniques. Here is the list of fouls from the UFC website.

* = not good for TMA
**= not good for TMA but should not be allowed.


Fouls: [Top]
*1. Butting with the head.
**2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
*4. Hair pulling.
**5. Fish hooking.
*6. Groin attacks of any kind.
**7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
*8. Small joint manipulation.
**9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
*10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
*11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
*12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*13. Grabbing the clavicle. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
*15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
*16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
*17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
**18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
*20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Now, I know I will get heII from MMAist, but you must admit. Now that many fighters are used to JJ, many TMA do not make the same mistakes.

**11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
**14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
**15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
**16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
**17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

dude these are not good for cma in a competition, you dont want to kill the person.

and plus, when you get into a ring and do their rules, its basically you are doing the same thing as them. the cma basically goes out the window.

then you get people going,
like in the taiwan swat thread.
that looks like a tkd kick, that looks like a mauy thai kick. that looks like jujitsu, or thats bjj.
the fact of the matter is its a kick. a kick is a kick, it has the same result, you hit someone hard with your leg. an arm bar is an arm bar, still same result, you break their elbow.
stop trying to break it all down. its all chinese martial arts anyways.