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Thread: Luan Jie Video??

  1. #61

    Clarification On Pronunciation "手", "叟"

    Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
    **The name of that form should be called "18 hands". In Chinese "hand" and "elder" are prounced the same.***

    Not so.
    18 elders=== 十八 叟 shi2 ba1 sou3
    (number signifies tone)

    18 hands=== 十八 手 shi2 ba1 shou3

    So the difference in the words is the SOUND ("SH"-sound, as opposed to "SSS"- sound) MEANING, and CHARACTER.
    Im a student of chinese language at University level and have many native chinese speaking friends. Even though this thread is about dead, i figured I'd post this for general clarification.


    Don't know where YouKnowWho learned the language. Try www.betterchinese.com

  2. #62
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  3. #63
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    Uhhhhh, he is Chinese dude.
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
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  4. #64
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    So, are we hinting that there was a mixup in the past and that the original name was 18 Hands but was changed to 18 Elders due to illiteracy?

  5. #65

    yao sing

    there is a shaolin form named 18 hands

  6. #66
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    18elders

    Hey man, no profanity in your post, you sick!

    Jake, I have had Chinese tell me a particular fellow Chinese had terrible language, guess they butcher it like we butcher the english language.

    Go ahead and cuss me 18!
    I am still a student practicing - Wang Jie Long

    "Don`t Taze Me Bro"

  7. #67

    Hehe! Oops:)

    Thanks Jake,
    He speaks Mandarin, or cantonese?
    I'm sure you, like myself, have met many chinese who pronounce things incorrectly due to regional accents and the like. In studying mandarin i often find when speaking and writing (especially), even native chinese mix up similar sounding words.
    Even in english we miss-speak, right?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by LaoShu View Post
    Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
    **The name of that form should be called "18 hands". In Chinese "hand" and "elder" are prounced the same.***

    Not so.
    18 elders=== 十八 叟 shi2 ba1 sou3
    (number signifies tone)

    18 hands=== 十八 手 shi2 ba1 shou3

    So the difference in the words is the SOUND ("SH"-sound, as opposed to "SSS"- sound) MEANING, and CHARACTER.
    Im a student of chinese language at University level and have many native chinese speaking friends. Even though this thread is about dead, i figured I'd post this for general clarification.


    Don't know where YouKnowWho learned the language. Try www.betterchinese.com

    LaoShu is correct, but there´s one little detail that maybe is causing this confusion: in many mantis schools we use the cantonese language. So, in cantonese, sou (elder) and shou (hand) have the same pronunciation, sau2

    Check it out:
    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-...l?query=%ad%ee (elder)
    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-...l?query=%a4%e2 (hand)

  9. #69

    My mistake

    Siuhoimoon you are correct. I missed that by assuming that mandarin was the language in question. My apologies

    LaoShu

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siuhoimoon View Post
    in cantonese, sou (elder) and shou (hand) have the same pronunciation, sau2
    You have just saved my self confidence big time. For a while I thought I may have to go back to grade school again.

    May be we should look at this from a different angle. What could the "18 elders" means? Someone said there were 18 PM masters who combined their knowledge and created that form. Could that be possible by using our simple logic?

    Many confusion that caused in CMA could be our ancestors was good in CMA but may not be good in literature. The Taiwan Taiji Association had tried to figure out the meaning of "holding tiger back to mountain" for years. Why anyone want to "hold" a tiger and go back to mountain? Will he try to get himself eaten by that tiger? Never heard anyone was strong enough to pick up a full growing tiger, not even mention to carry a huge tiger and walk up hill is almost impossible task for any human being to perform.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 11-29-2006 at 03:01 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You have just saved my self confidence big time. For a while I thought I may have to go back to grade school again.

    May be we should look at this from a different angle. What could the "18 elders" means? Someone said there were 18 PM masters who combined their knowledge and created that form. Could that be possible by using our simple logic?

    Many confusion that caused in CMA could be our ancestors was good in CMA but may not be good in literature. The Taiwan Taiji Association had tried to figure out the meaning of "holding tiger back to mountain" for years. Why anyone want to "hold" a tiger and go back to mountain? Will he try to get himself eaten by that tiger? Never heard anyone was strong enough to pick up a full growing tiger, not even mention to carry a huge tiger and walk up hill is almost impossible task for any human being to perform.
    YouKnowWho - see my response to Embrace Tiger here under the Tai Chi section -

    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...021#post723021

    Best,
    RB

  12. #72
    LaoShu,

    Even if we are talking about Mandarin, there are so many regional variations on accents in an applied sense in China that it is impossible to say what is correct and what is not. It is really a relative thing from region to region. Same thing with English in the US. Every region speaks with slightly different accents.

    We all know the character/s, we all know the general pronunciation, and most importantly we all need to know how to use the movements in free fighting application.

    BBK

  13. #73

    bengbukuen

    Quote Originally Posted by LaoShu View Post
    I'm sure you, like myself, have met many chinese who pronounce things incorrectly due to regional accents and the like. In studying mandarin i often find when speaking and writing (especially), even native chinese mix up similar sounding words.
    Even in english we miss-speak, right?
    uh-huh.................................

  14. #74

    More Pedantry

    Laoshu

    BBK talks about variations not mistakes. A number of Chinese words in Mandarin have Sou and Shou as interchangable pronunciations even in the dictionary to account for it.

    But you are right in saying that native speakers can err. Within a group of native speakers are varying levels of proficiency and vocabulary too. Even individuals have their own modes of speech and preferred expressions and slang. That's why learning a language is such a task at times. The large majority of language teachers and practice partners don't think about this and are constantly trying to put you onto the 'correct' path. They should be letting you practice often in a number of settings letting you make mistakes and experiment, gaining experience. Hey, this sounds like a bad metaphor for kung fu training.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You have just saved my self confidence big time. For a while I thought I may have to go back to grade school again.

    May be we should look at this from a different angle. What could the "18 elders" means? Someone said there were 18 PM masters who combined their knowledge and created that form. Could that be possible by using our simple logic?

    Many confusion that caused in CMA could be our ancestors was good in CMA but may not be good in literature. The Taiwan Taiji Association had tried to figure out the meaning of "holding tiger back to mountain" for years. Why anyone want to "hold" a tiger and go back to mountain? Will he try to get himself eaten by that tiger? Never heard anyone was strong enough to pick up a full growing tiger, not even mention to carry a huge tiger and walk up hill is almost impossible task for any human being to perform.
    My Taiwanese teacher said that it originally should be "18 Hands," but that some people also choose to interpret it as "18 Old Men" because the form is performed in a relatively slow, relaxed manner. Though "shou3" and "sou3" sound pretty different in Beijing Mandarin, they sound very similar if not indistinguishable in other dialects or in Mandarin as spoken by from Chinese in other regions. The "old man" interpretation of the form's name is probably just someone's later extrapolation based on mispronunciation or misinterpration of the character, I'd guess. It is true that great CMA masters aren't necessarily great men of words. One of my GMs was functionally illiterate.

    Also, I believe Youknowwho is Taiwanese. The Minnan dialect spoken in Taiwan is one of the many Chinese dialects that doesn't have "zh, chi, shi" sounds. As a result most Taiwanese don't distinguish between "zh" and "z," "ch and "c" or "sh" and "s" even when speaking Mandarin (sometimes they meld "l" and "n" as well). If you ask a Taiwanese to say "44" they will most likely say what sounds like "si4 si2 si4" in mainland pinyin.
    Last edited by onyomi; 12-03-2006 at 01:39 AM.
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