View Poll Results: how many postures are needed?

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  • the longer the better

    4 80.00%
  • segments of 10 to 12

    1 20.00%
  • just a few

    0 0%
  • free forms

    0 0%
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Thread: How long are forms necessary?

  1. #1

    How long are forms necessary?

    We tend to practice short sequences or a few moves strung together over and over.

    Some friends asked that do you have 32, 48, 88, 108 forms etc etc?

    Some forms are put together with repeats and some continuation moves such as single whip in Tai Chi or buddha pounding mortar etc.

    Some are reduced from the long forms by taking away repeats.

    We sometimes practice Chen Tai Chi 37 moves.

    So how long are forms needed to be for practice purpose?


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPJ View Post
    So how long are forms needed to be for practice purpose?
    Forms were created for the purpose of "teaching" and "learning" only and not for "practicing".

  3. #3
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    I tend to agree.

    forms practice these days usually consists of taking the stuff out of the form and applying it.

    forms practice itself is just to maintain the form so you can pull everything from it that is of use to you.

    qigong forms, or sequences are diffferent even those that include some martial stuff, so dynamic tension sets (as an example) are good to keep intact in that respect.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  4. #4
    Excellent points.

    If the forms are to be representative moves of a particular style or boxing methods, yes, the longer or more inclusive forms the better.

    Caste your votes or just express whatever you think about the topic.

    Personally, I dun like long forms. I prefer 1-2-3. My attention span/time is limited. I would start yawning if I watch more than 10 moves. or I lost my attention.

    --


  5. #5
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    A form may be constructed as a1, a2, a3, b1, b2, c1, c2, c3, c4,.. where a1 - a3, b1 - b2, c1- c4 are combo. there is no connection between a3, b1 and b2, c1. So the legnth of the form is the number of different combo. The from may contain 9 moves but you can train as three different drills as a1- a3, b1 - b2, and c1 - c4. How you want to train is all up to you and not by the form designer.

    This sound like simple concept but many people practiced their form from the 1st move to the last move for the rest of their life.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 11-10-2006 at 11:59 PM.

  6. #6
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    it is what it is.

    drills are extracted from forms.

    forms generally define a system of techniques and serve as a catalog to be opened and extrapolated from.

    all drills are taken out of forms. but you gotta learn the form first.

    shape and structure of gross movements gets adapted through drills, force feedback work and finally sparring (alive training as our mma enthusiasts like to refer to it as )

    technique combinations can be mixed and matched from what exists in a given system that is contained in forms. so large systems can have a good variety of techniques to use in the effective ranges.

    street deadly techniques are indeed hard to practice because they cannot be done with live resisting opponents without actually pulling the technique.

    so, form extrapolations get carried over to devices of all kinds of variation in order to develop the technique. bags, targets of various media, devices of various construction and function and so on.

    the augmentation exercises that come with forms training are of value & interest and through forms the correct structure and understanding of where to issue and where to retain forces are learned.

    forms are:

    -the cointainer of the techniques of a given system
    -the crucible of understanding structure and motion
    -the documentation of the style they come from
    -the abc's of the fighting system
    -a method of attribute development in correct structure and footwork


    forms aren't:

    -the sole way to learn a system of combat and holistic cultivation
    -ineffective and unproductive towards attributes that map over to fighting skills
    -always easy to learn and understand fully
    -always easy to express with fluidity and obvious power
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #7
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    In studying Chinese lit., I've noticed a strong tendency among the Chinese to want to take everything that's good and collect it in one spot so that they can forget about the rest. The Huainan-zi was an attempt by a king and group of scholars to collect all the good literature in history. Almost two thousand years later, the Qianlong Emperor's Siku Quanshu project was basically the same.

    I think this might be part of the mode of thinking which drove CMAists to want to compile everything into one or three or five long forms, rather than having 300 short combinations--despite the fact that I find short combinations are generally easier to learn, polish and apply. Of course, there's also an element of cardio training in long Longfist forms or training of the qi in Taiji, et. al.
    What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?

    --The Orange Catholic Bible

  8. #8
    Forms are not for practicing? Ouch then the Tai Chi masters of the past didn't understand anything...sometimes it was only forms for years before the MA drills ;P

  9. #9
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    Personally, I think full length forms are, and originally were for the teachers. This gave a moving documentation of their curriculem, and battery of techniques as well as recording thier favorite combo's. Also so they had some sort of conditioning method that was *Sport specific* to thier art, rather than just running, or doing kick punch drills. By the time one was a teacher, all that stuff was so ingrained they really didn't do much anymore, and all are covered in the form as well anyway.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by charyuop View Post
    Forms are not for practicing? Ouch then the Tai Chi masters of the past didn't understand anything...sometimes it was only forms for years before the MA drills ;P
    Maybe there are some truth there. The forms usually are designed in such a way that you start from one spot and then end back to the same spot. In order to do that, some footwork has to be modified which may not be able to map into combat directly.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 11-11-2006 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #11
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    forms arent neccessary at all. you can learn the same things without them. its called jeet kun do.

    tell you the truth i like forms and their applications. i dot think they should be too long cause then its just too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis View Post
    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  12. #12
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    actually lueb, "real" jkd teaches you how to take forms apart and extract and use the parts.

    people who teach jkd as a "style" are generally talking out their ass.

    jkd is complimentary to any style of combative.

    for instance, if you went to brucee lee back in the day to learn, and you had no foundation, then you would learn jun fan kungfu first which was comprised mostly of wing chun and som other odds and sods shaolin and otherwise.

    once you could do that, then you could learn the concept of jkd which is how to apply what you already have the shape of.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  13. #13
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    sometimes too long

    I will allude (sic?) Kung Fu to music.

    Moves are to notes as drills are to phrases as forms are to

    SONGS!

    Can you dig?

    I knew that you could.

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