Does WC answer the question......

[stricker]

If you grab someone and pull at them, but don't affect their center line or their center of gravity and unbalance them, but use it as a set up for another damaging blow, what technique have you just done?

knifefighter,

i see the opposite of all this. techniques eg lap sao, pak, etc etc all the labels are bullsht. i just think parry, pull, push, open people up, overextend them, off balance, drive in wedge, keeping other hand up in boxing combos, or wu sao in wingchun etc theyve been more important to me than actual techniques.

eg kuzushi is a principle not a technique. to me in stand up grappling kuzushi is as important as technique no? eg even if i dont have good technique in the particular throw to use given the position were in or what the situation determines good kuzushi and i can use that to keep from gettin hit with as much power, make my hits more effective, move to the position i want etc...

actually i aint gonna get into principles or concepts ill get hit over the head with the dictionary...

i see analysis paralysis in wing chun every **** milimiter movement has a different name etc kills it, just timing distance structure position etc keeps it more simple get in there and ruck

[anerlich]

One can either train with as you say BJJer's, Sambists, MMAers and others and the list could go on and on or you can find the common denominator amongst those group of arts/styles and train it. The it in my opinion in this particular case can be defined as the principles of grappling. Does there exist a set of natural laws of physics that every grappler must adhere to no matter what the art/style is referred to by name and if so then by training/sparring utilizing those principles can one then become proficient in the arts of grappling and anti grappling. Personally from what I train I find the answer to be yes but of course others will quite naturally disagree as opinions can and do vary.

I can't buy this. You seem to think you can find the "principles of grappling" as some absolute metaphysical, or metastylistic, concept that every exponent of every grappling art has somehow missed because they somehow miss some vital way of looking at combat that only TCMA in general and HFYWCK in particular have got. Like you can understand it without actually meeting and training with people who have put in the time necessary to become expert with it.

You still have to work your "anti-grappling" against good grapplers, and every good grappler is going to have some sort of stylistic base. The best anti-grapplers are grapplers, because they understand the so called "principles of grappling" at an experiential and intuitive level, not just untested theory.

I'll bet no one has ever successfully done what you suggest in the bubble of a single kwoon, and I'll also bet no one ever will. There's an easier way and much harder way to learn about grappling - going to the source is easy, doing as you suggest about the hardest and most error-prone possible. Only in TCMA do supposed "researchers" insist on reinventing the wheel and blazing trails when their peers in the grappling arts have already built ten lane superhighways covering the same territory and going to the same destination.

BTW, Dale came up with a very good list of principles ... your definitional hairsplitting and resorting to hitting him over the head with the dictionary in response indicates just how well he answered your original question.

[Edmund]

Though the list you have provided is detailed and quite thorough it does not appear to be a list of principles of which I was referring to earlier in the discussion but instead a list of concepts. Let's examine the terms more closely.
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Tony,

I'm not seeing what your point is.

Classifying KF's list as concepts means what?
You're still not establishing any commonality between WC and grappling arts.

If there aren't any common principles, concepts and techniques between WC groundfighting and other grappling arts I don't fancy your chances in a groundfighting situation.

As I said before you could find some vague principles in common but they don't really help. You can't just have 1 of your layers kinda sorta half similar and still be that competitive on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

If there aren't any common principles, concepts and techniques between WC groundfighting and other grappling arts I don't fancy your chances in a groundfighting situation.

There are principles, concepts and techniques from any standing style that you could more than likely use very effectively on the ground. However, the principles, concepts and techniques of groundfighting will normally take precedence over the ones from a standing system.

You could probably use many of these standing principles, concepts and techniques even more successfully from the mount than you could when both you and your opponent are standing and your opponent has free mobility. However, many of these same principles, concepts and techniques will be your demise if your position is reversed and your opponent is the one who has control from the mounted position.

[Ravenshaw]

The best anti-grapplers are grapplers, because they understand the so called "principles of grappling" at an experiential and intuitive level, not just untested theory.

This is the reason that, if I wanted to make any kind of anti-grappling work, I would cross-train with grapplers.

[canglong]

Concepts underlie the techniques and principles underlie the concepts. For one to completely understand a system, one must understand all three

knifefighter,
True enough completely understand a system exactly, key wording because this generally tends to produce a more knowledgable person or some would say a well rounded individual.

One can fight with techniques without ever understanding the principles and concepts behind them.

Also true our discussion here is focused on does wing chun answer the question and the answer to that can best come from individuals who completely understand the system.

If you grab someone and pull at them, but don't affect their center line or their center of gravity and unbalance them, but use it as a set up for another damaging blow, what technique have you just done? -knifefighter

If you laap but don't disrupt the center of gravity of your opponent then there may or may not be a set up to anything after the improper laap it varies depending upon how complete the understanding of your opponent is to what is going on around him/her. It is a valid question because it points out that just because a person was successful executing a particular technique does not mean the technique was used correctly only that the counter was not employed or not employed correctly.

When you want to pound a nail into a piece of wood and you have a choice between using an old shoe another piece of wood or a hammer which would most people prefer to use. Although the other 2 choices may or may not be successful at pounding a nail into wood a hammer is the right tool for the job.

Knifefighter if a person calls himself a grappler but doesn't know the list of things you pointed out you might or might not agree that he is truly a grappler there could be some doubt in your mind. Yet when a person with demonstrated skill of a grappler comes to you as someone who knows the things on the list you provided doesn't that person remove any doubt as to whether or not he or she is a grappler in your mind not only because they can demonstrate skill but because they can explain it also, completely understand the system this is all we are talking about how best to completely understand the system of wing chun.

[canglong]

Andrew,
This thread nor my post could be considered a referendum on right ,wrong, better or worse. My post also did not allow for any practitioner to recuse him or herself from needed time training or sparring. Just expressing my own personal take on how it is my training takes place and what there is to take away from that training from a personal perspective. To think that there is always only one way to learn how to do something anything is a false premise to begin with. My view is there is a necessary medium between sparring and lecture because people can learn better from one or the other or both. My post was just pointing out where that medium seems to fall from my understanding as provided by my particular school.

BTW, Dale came up with a very good list of principles ... your definitional hairsplitting and resorting to hitting him over the head with the dictionary in response indicates just how well he answered your original question.

Knifefighter's response to my post indicates that he understood the meaning of my post and took it in the spirit it was intended.

Concepts underlie the techniques and principles underlie the concepts. For one to completely understand a system, one must understand all three.--knifefighter

[Chango]

I think there is a comunication gap here. I have a grappling background High school wrestling, combative wrestling (not organized competition)etc... I can see the direct link and relationship to my Wing Chun training. I can infact use my Wing Chun training to define the experiences that I have had in that realm to a much clearer understanding. some may not see that as " being in the system". I think this speaks more to how you view your Wing Chun training.

I honestly see this conversation as people having different Points of views according to how they relate to thier Wing chun. This can be due to many different reasons. Some lineages do not go beyond the shapes and techniques. Some will stop at concepts. Some will go to the principle level. Of course no one here is saying that one lineage or style or even martial art (chinese or other) is the only one that contains principles. So to stay productive this has to be said and understood upfront.

Another reason for different P.O.V's could be the method of thier Sifu. Some teach on the technique level some concept and of course some on the principle level.
Last but not least it could be the understanding of the student or the student's relationship to the art be it technique, concept, or principle.

So many factors are at play here. If we are not clear as to what is a principle and what is a concept this conversation is very limited. This compiled with different expressions of these concepts and principles can make this pretty hard as well.


I also see a misunderstanding about training methods as well. Believe me I'm not speaking from a Wing chun bubble! (I like that)LOL! The work is put in as a requirement. it's important to know that we can theorize all day but it comes down to having experience and having clear understanding of that experience.
I have no problem having a guest comming into the kwoon that speacializes in one area of fighting. (Or I go visit them.) When I train anti-grappling and or grappling I sometimes spar with a speacialist. Of course my intent is not to play his game. I train to be able to have a choice to play his game or not. I use my Wing Chun control this interaction. I use my Wing Chun to control the situation so I can play his game or play my game from a better vantage point. I use my Wing Chun to understand what it honestly takes to be sucessfull in his game. Is this cross training? Ok maybe maybe not. Depends on your P.O.V. I think of it as using my Wing Chun in yet another set of conditions. I'm just using my local resources to get a realistic experience in that realm. Of course you can replace grappler with boxer, Kick boxer, TKD etc.....

The question then comes up, does your Wing Chun offer what it takes to understand the speacialist game? I cannot speak for other Wing Chun lineages I can only speak for my 1st hand experiences. With that in mind I can say that in Hung Fa Yi the Saam Ma Kiu approach allows for this experience. I can also say that through my experiences with Chi Sim Wing Chun the 18 kiu Sau concept allows one to have this experience as well and not loose one's identity. These approachs allows these lineages to define the experience from the P.O.V of Time, Space and Energy. Thus eliminating the tendancy of bias.

I hope this clears things up for some. If not I must apologize for adding to the confusion!

I find it quite odd that when I post on a forum that is not Wing Chun they can see this point. But my fellow Wing chun enthusiast seem to run into troubles.

[canglong]

Classifying KF's list as concepts means what?
You're still not establishing any commonality between WC and grappling arts.

Hello Edmund,
The idea we should be looking at is first removing the labels so we can see things for what they truly are. We first have to call grappling a fighting method and then call wing chun a fighting method to see some common points of reference. Those common points of reference would be the principles behind the techniques because they are the same for all fighting methods involving hand-to-hand fighting for 2 humans.

For instance when someone standing does a leg sweep in combination with a po pai or push the principles of gravity are employed by first destablilizing the opponents structure (attacking the opponents center of gravity)then manipulating his position by push pull or hitting the body(structure). So when someone is on the ground positioned so they establish body structure on both knees and both hands and the opponent sweeps one arm making it easier to attack the opponents center of gravity first and more easily controlling and subsequently being able to manipulate the body (structure) with a push, pull or strike they too are making use of the principles of gravity. So in essence what we have is the 2 controlling opponents employing the same principle with different techniques. Then the commonality we have is that 2 practitioners are acheiving the same exacts ends with what might be seen as 2 different application on the surface but underneath in reality they are the same exact principles being employed for the same exact purpose meaning that understanding the principle is a necessary prerequisite to understanding how and why a technique either works or doesn't work .

[Edmund]

Hello Edmund,
The idea we should be looking at is first removing the labels so we can see things for what they truly are. We first have to call grappling a fighting method and then call wing chun a fighting method to see some common points of reference. Those common points of reference would be the principles behind the techniques because they are the same for all fighting methods involving hand-to-hand fighting for 2 humans.

I appreciate that point.

For instance when someone standing does a leg sweep in combination with a po pai or push the principles of gravity are employed by first destablilizing the opponents structure (attacking the opponents center of gravity)then manipulating his position by push pull or hitting the body(structure). So when someone is on the ground positioned so they establish body structure on both knees and both hands and the opponent sweeps one arm making it easier to attack the opponents center of gravity first and more easily controlling and subsequently being able to manipulate the body (structure) with a push, pull or strike they too are making use of the principles of gravity. So in essence what we have is the 2 controlling opponents employing the same principle with different techniques. Then the commonality we have is that 2 practitioners are acheiving the same exacts ends with what might be seen as 2 different application on the surface but underneath in reality they are the same exact principles being employed for the same exact purpose meaning that understanding the principle is a necessary prerequisite to understanding how and why a technique either works or doesn't work .

Well this is demonstrating my point! As happily familiar as you can be with the vague principle of gravity and sweeping someone from the feet, you can still be a mile away from sweeping someone from the ground.

It doesn't hurt to know about gravity but the amount that it helps is not so great. That's because you need to ALSO know basic techniques and concepts of groundfighting.

Without those other layers of theory, your groundfighting practice would just be flopping around.

[canglong]

Without those other layers of theory, your groundfighting practice would just be flopping around.

Edmund,
Good point, I agree and by his own words knifefighter concurs with what you just said when he said.

Concepts underlie the techniques and principles underlie the concepts. For one to completely understand a system, one must understand all three --knifefighter

No one part of the system is sustainable on its own they must function together as one. If someone were to walk up to you right now and say check this out on my own I just made up a new technique. How could you validate their claim. Well by asking them to first describe the concept behind the technique and then see if the concept adheres to the natural laws of physics. No need to balance on your head to attempt to execute the scissor knee take down technique you know is flawed.

[splinter]

Edmund,
Good point, I agree and by his own words knifefighter concurs with what you just said when he said. No one part of the system is sustainable on its own they must function together as one. If someone were to walk up to you right now and say check this out on my own I just made up a new technique. How could you validate their claim. Well by asking them to first describe the concept behind the technique and then see if the concept adheres to the natural laws of physics. No need to balance on your head to attempt to execute the scissor knee take down technique you know is flawed.

Ok, so if you're saying that you can find principles for ground fighting in your wing chun, perhaps you could elaborate on the concepts and techniques that you use to implement those principles on the ground.

I'm curious, since I've never been exposed to any Wing Chun ground fighting.

[lawrenceofidaho]

A Wing Chun instructor, -anywhere in the world, could release a video about "anti-grappling" and make a fortune, if it showed realistic takedown defenses against an average collegiate wrestler, and realistic sub-defenses against an average BJJ purple belt.

The fact that there are so many WC people in the world (thus an obvious demand for this type of video), makes you wonder why this hasn't been produced

[sihing]

A Wing Chun instructor, -anywhere in the world, could release a video about "anti-grappling" and make a fortune, if it showed realistic takedown defenses against an average collegiate wrestler, and realistic sub-defenses against an average BJJ purple belt.

The fact that there are so many WC people in the world (thus an obvious demand for this type of video), makes you wonder why this hasn't been produced

Lawrence,

It's hard enough connecting my elbow to my hip, now you want me to "Anti Graplle"...Geez..

By the way it's nice to see you back here..

James

[lawrenceofidaho]

It's hard enough connecting my elbow to my hip

Just don't connect it permanently.......

Sometimes you'll want it in another position.

Trust me.

-L