Yang Jwing-Ming's kung fu retreat?

[B-Rad]

Yes, but to me it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed. Nice idea, but I'm skeptical. It'll be interesting to see how these people turn out though.

[SanHeChuan]

He should make a reality show out of it or at least a documentary.

The tuition is S90,000 over 5 years, so you're family doesn't have to be that rich. But at 17-22 your family has to really support your kung fu aspirations. And 10 years is alot longer commitment than college. Doctors don't spend that much time in school. Plus being totally cut off from the world for 9 months at a time,... is he making kung fu masters or uni-bombers?

I've been toying around with the idea of a kung fu university type thing. Not that I'm in any position to pull it off. At the most basic level it would be a live-in gym, where you train for 8+ hours a day. Kind of like how they do with gymnasts. Recruit a some experienced instructors, for variety. But I'd put mine near a populated area. Some distractions are good.

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has a really admirable goal though, and I'd like to see more kung fu men try less ambitious projects.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Quote removed at the poster's request, the original post deleted

The "deposit" is an incentive to complete the training, moreso if it is returned.. AND, Dr. Yang is considering "scholarship assistance" for students in certain circumstances..

Likewise he personally owns these facilities, so he (the "retreat center") is renting them from himself at a clip of $13,600/month or a total of $1,224,000.

Agreed, and do you suppose that he didn't invest his own money in this venture.. is he not entitled to recoup some of that investment..

Dr. Yang learned he did so while he both worked and went to school so if he feels he's qualified to teach people to such a level then why does he feel like that's the only way somebody else can achieve that level?

He states that he wants to improve on his original situation. he recognizes that the experience and knowledge gained over his life in TCMA is too comprehensive to doled out to large numbers of students attending classes on "their schedule".. he, and i am speculating here, has a goal that differs from the goals that most people wish him to have.. i think he is 61 years old, at completion of the training he will be in his 70s.. he wants to produce highly trained, competent, and business-wise teachers.. people that can move his art into the future.. it's HIS vision.. He intends to pick young, intelligent, talented, and dedicated students.. from those that succede, they will be young enough to open the art up to a much wider group, i see the wisdom in his process.. even though i wish i were in a position to take advantage of such a generous offer.. i can't think of any Universities that give you your tuition back to start a business..

Again, i admire his vision and dedication.. AND, if he can make money while doing it, what's the rub? Speaking of "romantic" notions, free kung fu training for the dedicated desciple would fall into that category.. If Dr. Yang can pull this off, i think it can only help the Art.. and, i am for anything that helps CMA..

Be well..

[YouKnowWho]

Sounds fun to have 15 partners for your own training for the next 10 years.

Bang, Bang, Bang, and Bang. 4 down and 11 more to go.

[Ford Prefect]

Agreed, and do you suppose that he didn't invest his own money in this venture.. is he not entitled to recoup some of that investment....

He has every right of course, but I will call a spade a spade. I won't chaulk it up to an admirable or noble deed, when the guy is making out like a bandit. He is:

1) Making $1,600,000 in "salary" through this 10 years.

2) Making another $1,224,000 in renting these facilities to his non-profit over the next 10 years.

3) All expenses for this time will be paid via donations.

4) At the end of these 10 years he will have $2,824,000 CASH which is more than enough to pay off the land and facilities financing. He will have a boat load of money AND he will have a fully paid for, fully equipped training facility (non profit is spending $15,000/year on equipment) in the moutains which will allow him to scrap the non-profit since he personally owns the land and facilities. He can then turn the whole thing into a commercial venture after making out like a bandit running a "non-profit" one. Basically he has people donate money to him so he can pay off his mortgage, make millions, and then turn the product of the donations into even more commercial gain.

I have a tough time swallowing what is so admirable and noble about that. I admire him for his business sense. I won't make it seem like he is gracing the world with this gift out of some noble sense of duty when it is set-up like that.

*This is not speaking for his amiability or his instruction. Both are great.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Suppose, for the sake of arguement, that Dr. Yang has, as his first priority, a noble cause.. and, as a by-product of that, a way to make money.. i find no fault for making the money over a 10 year period considering he will be in his 70s when the plan matures.. i applaud his "business-fu".. calling "a spade a spade" is a comparison to your personal perspective and not of necessity any link to the reality of Dr. Yang's personal goals..

Be Well..

[Ford Prefect]

If the cause were noble, then why not buy the land and facilities as the non-profit research center? This would ensure that the research center could function well into the future as perscribed by him well past the time he passes.

Instead he is using donations to pay for his personal facilities, his personal land, and millions in cash of these donations go straight into his own pocket. He could privatise the whole thing in 10 years, make it into a fully commercial kung fu camp charging whatever tuition he can, and turn the rest of it into his private estate. The non-profit basically has no control over anything.

calling "a spade a spade" is a comparison to your personal perspective and not of necessity any link to the reality of Dr. Yang's personal goals..

Right. Yet again, it's called an opinion, Bob. Just like what you're typing.

[SanHeChuan]

Well he's not making his money off the students so it's not like he's fleecing them, so I don't really care how much he makes. He's worked the system with out taking advantage of his student, so good on him.

But there's no way in H@ll I'd give him a donation, are you kidding me!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As predictable as the seasons.. the critics appear.. Dr. Yang is putting his money and his reputation out there for the world to scrutinize.. few of us can say the same..

it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed.

How do we "know" what existed?.. most of the stories and legends are embellished camp-fire stories anyhow.. at least Dr. Yang is willing to forge a new chapter in the TCMA storybook..
As for the money issue, Ford.. the student will be carefully screened, informed in detail as to the terms and conditions and no one will force them to accept the offer..

Also Dr. Yang has always emphasized the fighting aspects of his martial arts and who really believes that spoiled rich kids are going to make the best fighters or instructors of fighting arts? He would do much better dedicating himself to his own school and his students there.

That's the point, with proper and dedicated training even a "spoiled rich kid" can be transformed into a martial artist.. and, just for the record, being wealthy does not exclude someone from having the dedication and drive necessary to complete the training.. that notion is prejudiced or envious..

I like the idea of a documentary, it could serve as a model or a warning.. depending on the outcome.. As for the practicallity of Dr. Yang's vision, the difference between Shaolin trained competitors and the general US trained competitor is observably in favor of Shaolin.. lending some credence to that type of training.. Dr. Yang's training will rival the Shaolin training regimen and, i am patient enough to wait and see how it plays out.. i am not interested in converting others to my beliefs about something, i am interested in refining those beliefs, or.. adjusting my beliefs based on new or revised evidence..

Be well..

[Shaolindynasty]

Yes, but to me it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed.

Kinda what I was getting at.

Dr. Yang didn't ignore the "distractions" of going to college getting a degree and building a life.

I think what he's doing sounds cool but I don't think it's gonna work for anyone involved.

[shuaichiao]

That's the point, with proper and dedicated training even a "spoiled rich kid" can be transformed into a martial artist.. and, just for the record, being wealthy does not exclude someone from having the dedication and drive necessary to complete the training.. that notion is prejudiced or envious....

Actually it's neither. If he truly wants to pass down the highest quality martial arts to people who will continue to teach it then he should find a way to pass it down to the best possible students not the best students who happen to have a hundred grand lying around. I should point out that when Dr. Yang learned he did so while he both worked and went to school so if he feels he's qualified to teach people to such a level then why does he feel like that's the only way somebody else can achieve that level?

[Ford Prefect]

As predictable as the seasons.. the critics appear.. Dr. Yang is putting his money and his reputation out there for the world to scrutinize.. few of us can say the same..

It's called having an opinion, Bob. People are allowed to have opinions based on observations. From the sounds of it, SC has a good deal of personal experience with Dr Yang as do I. I even prefaced my post by saying he was a good guy and instructor, so that people would understand it is my opinion of this undertaking and not him Yang himself.

As for the money issue, Ford.. the student will be carefully screened, informed in detail as to the terms and conditions and no one will force them to accept the offer..

I am aware of all the details of the retreat. My point is that college applicants are screened as well. Many people don't end up having a career for what they went to college for and many more switched majors while in school. Most people change their beliefs and priorities from when they were 18 years old.

That is really only an ancillary issue. Since this center is attempting to garner tax exempt status, their finances are open to the public and they post them on their website (http://www.ymaa-retreatcenter.org). The proposed yearly salary Yang is going to pay for himself is $160,000/year for those 10 years ($1,600,000 total). Likewise he personally owns these facilities, so he (the "retreat center") is renting them from himself at a clip of $13,600/month or a total of $1,224,000. That right there is $2,824,000 he is personally making off this.

Now also count that this Retreat Center is paying out $349,000 for "recruiting costs" and that since he is running this as a non-profit, he will rely on donations for the bulk of these operating costs. In the end, he makes out with the land, facilities, and at the very least $2,824,000 in salary and rent through the Research Institute. That's not bad for running a non-profit for 10 years.

($200,000 is being financed by Yang to build... I don't think Yang will have a problem paying them and the land off with his "rent" from the Research Center.)

Like I said, I could just be a pessimist. This just seems like a racket to me.

[Samurai Jack]

I want to start off by saying that I highly respect Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. His books have raised the bar for CMA, in fact all martial arts books worldwide. I have several friends who have trained with him, and everyone has had nothing but good things to say about his skill, his integrity, and the caliber of students he produces.

All of that said, I personally have serious concerns about any group with such a charismatic leader choosing to isolate itself for TEN YEARS. It is doubly frightening to know that the members of this proposed community will be very young impressionable people. There will undoubtedly be tremendous peer pressure involved in the venture; it isn't possible to avoid. There will be conflicts. There will be tremendous turmoil as the group dynamics will inevitably be at odds with each student's basic (and still developing) sense of individuality.

You have all of the makings of a cult here, and the part that worries me most is that it appears that these dynamics are being put together deliberately. I have personally worked in mental health for ten years now. I have also lived for a time as a member of a Zen monastery. I know groupthink and cult behavior backwards and forwards. The level of commitment being demanded here makes it very clear that this will not be a democratic organization. Yang will be in charge of everything. The students will be completely dependant on him for food, shelter, and the community for companionship and support. This is a dangerous ****tail because the leader of this organization will not have been raised in a monastic environment himself for an appreciable length of time. It's an important distinction, because it seems very clear to me that there is a lack of experience here. Nobody seems to know what he or she is getting in to, least of all the leader.

Some aspects of Cult behavior that could be pitfalls of this program as it has been laid out here:

1. The Guru is always right.


In this venture Dr. Yang appears to be the one running the whole show. He will be selecting the students, he will own the property that they live on, he will be teaching them personally, he will be scheduling their lives, and he will presumably be feeding them. Furthermore he’s a recognized kungfu master who will be looked up to and respected as an authority by all of his young protégés. It is highly unlikely that any of them will have the strength of will to do anything to oppose Dr. Yang’s will, should things get out of hand.

2. You are always wrong.

The young people being selected are obviously too young to have firmly entrenched personalities from a psychological standpoint. Years of research into military boot camps, isolationist cults, prisons and even college fraternities have all but proven that all people are highly malleable when subjected to environments that favor groupthink and community over the needs of individuals. Young people tend to be more susceptible to these influences than older people, thus the preference that many cults and institutions have for younger members.

3. No exit.

While it isn’t obvious from the description of the proposed program, there does not appear to be much recourse for individuals who take issue with the teacher or the group. It is very “all-or-nothing” in that a student loses his or her investment (in time and finances), as well as membership in the community and approval of the “guru”… powerful motivators; irresistible for 99% of people.

4. No Graduates.

Here it appears that people who complete the program will be able to open their own schools. This carrot is somewhat suspect as it is being dangled on an extremely long ten-year cord. In the mean time, no one will be able to come close to Dr. Yang’s skill level, which will of course reinforce his control over the group. As fighting will presumably be part of the curriculum, there is the added danger that the unconscious message that “you will never be done with this” will be reinforced again and again.

5. Cult speak

Students will be required to learn Chinese; a foreign language for many of the students. This is worrisome, because once again the students thoughts and very self identity will be under the control of the teacher, who has fluent mastery of the language. This particular aspect of cult behavior is particularly worrisome according to cult expert Robert J. Lifton:

” Beginners have to learn all of the new terminology in order to fit in, and understand what is being said. Then, the new language has the effect of separating the newcomer from his old world, and from his old circle of friends. His new friends will tell him that ‘Only another member understands’, and it will be true. When he babbles nothing but cult-speak, nobody but another cult member will be able to understand.”

These are just five of the most basic hallmarks of cult behavior. I am not trying to lambaste Dr. Yang, but rather point out that his program, as outlined, appears to be somewhat dangerous. Ten years is enough time for even those most well-adjusted and good intentioned group to succumb to disaster. I would sincerely like to see such a venture as Dr. Yang is proposing succeed, but several important things would have to change within the program itself if the outlined pitfalls were to be avoided.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It's interesting how over the years i've been on this forum there have been numerous posts lamenting how there was no authentic monastic style training.. how, in the "old days" the masters carefully selected their students.. how they trained secretively.. how they produced highly trained dedicated and loyal disciples.. Now, someone tries to do it, and.. people look for the faults.. predict, without evidence, the failure of such a notion.. and, call to question the intentions of a respectable teacher..

I have been fortunate to be acquainted with Dr. Yang for quite a few years, now.. and i sense no "cult" inclinations, rather the opposite.. as i understand his motives, it is to help the selected students transcend the mundane training found in the public venues.. to take them to a place in their own lives where they would likely not be able to go on their own.. I'm not going to pre-judge this venture, if it works out favorably, i will applaud Dr. Yang's efforts.. if not, i will be a vocal critic..

This type of training is not for everyone.. between a youngster's desire and Dr. Yang's selection criteria, there should be a better than even chance of success.. Money is not the only issue, there is natural talent, quality of character, physical condition, and understanding of the challenge ahead.. If it works, it could be a model for future ventures.. if not, it will serve as an example to modify future similar attempts.. in any case, it's a first step..

It's an ambitious venture both for the teacher and the student.. if Dr. Yang feels that 10 years is the appropriate time, it's his call.. it's his venture.. no one forces a student to do this, and anyone is free to leave as they choose.. this will weed out the mediocre, it will cull those unable to handle real pressure, and, if successful, should produce a generation of highly qualified teachers.. well-versed in a comprehensive martial system.. it is a reasonable attempt to raise the bar for CMA..

Be well..

[Samurai Jack]

My training is hardly mundane, but you definatly bring up an interesting point. What Dr. Yang is attempting to do is certainly admirable, however the building of a monastic community is VERY different from the operation of a martial arts school. It requires a different set of expectations, and a different "educational model" if you will, from what most of us have been exposed to in public martial education.

First there needs to be very clearly dileniated roles among the members of the community. In order to assure successful educational skills, the teacher must of course be in charge of how the "in school" program is run. Most monasteries have a building set aside for training, and there's a reason for that: outside of class time, the students are typically running the day to day operation of the rest of the program. Even in old style Zen training a small group of senior students were in charge of such things as meal planning, building maintainance, scheduling activities around training times, and scheduling recreational activties for rest etc. This makes the monastery work as more of a democratic community and keeps the "leader" from dominating too much of the student's lives. Private time needs to be scheduled. This is one key point that helps to prevent problems.

Secondly, there needs to be an body of arbiters, typically peers who support the monastery indirectly by contributing, although proffessionals who are not directly involved with the teacher are often employed (psychologists and lawyers for example), in order to mediate disputes within the community of various legal, medical, of psych-social natures. This board of advisers, if you will, is the body with which the ultimate decision to accept or expel members should be entrusted. While deciscions of the teacher will normally be supported, cases may exist down the line wherin this will not be the case.

There is a great deal of information concerning how to operate such an organization, but again, a venture like this requires a certain level of experience. I'm not saying that Dr. Yang dosen't have this experience; I don't know. I'm just pointing out that some of the advertised features of this training program seem rife with pitfalls. There are ways to set up such an organization that will ensure safeguards are in place, and that good serious training can be endured safely.