Yang Jwing-Ming's kung fu retreat?

[SanHeChuan]

He should make a reality show out of it or at least a documentary.

The tuition is S90,000 over 5 years, so you're family doesn't have to be that rich. But at 17-22 your family has to really support your kung fu aspirations. And 10 years is alot longer commitment than college. Doctors don't spend that much time in school. Plus being totally cut off from the world for 9 months at a time,... is he making kung fu masters or uni-bombers?

I've been toying around with the idea of a kung fu university type thing. Not that I'm in any position to pull it off. At the most basic level it would be a live-in gym, where you train for 8+ hours a day. Kind of like how they do with gymnasts. Recruit a some experienced instructors, for variety. But I'd put mine near a populated area. Some distractions are good.

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has a really admirable goal though, and I'd like to see more kung fu men try less ambitious projects.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As predictable as the seasons.. the critics appear.. Dr. Yang is putting his money and his reputation out there for the world to scrutinize.. few of us can say the same..

it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed.

How do we "know" what existed?.. most of the stories and legends are embellished camp-fire stories anyhow.. at least Dr. Yang is willing to forge a new chapter in the TCMA storybook..
As for the money issue, Ford.. the student will be carefully screened, informed in detail as to the terms and conditions and no one will force them to accept the offer..

Also Dr. Yang has always emphasized the fighting aspects of his martial arts and who really believes that spoiled rich kids are going to make the best fighters or instructors of fighting arts? He would do much better dedicating himself to his own school and his students there.

That's the point, with proper and dedicated training even a "spoiled rich kid" can be transformed into a martial artist.. and, just for the record, being wealthy does not exclude someone from having the dedication and drive necessary to complete the training.. that notion is prejudiced or envious..

I like the idea of a documentary, it could serve as a model or a warning.. depending on the outcome.. As for the practicallity of Dr. Yang's vision, the difference between Shaolin trained competitors and the general US trained competitor is observably in favor of Shaolin.. lending some credence to that type of training.. Dr. Yang's training will rival the Shaolin training regimen and, i am patient enough to wait and see how it plays out.. i am not interested in converting others to my beliefs about something, i am interested in refining those beliefs, or.. adjusting my beliefs based on new or revised evidence..

Be well..

[Shaolindynasty]

Yes, but to me it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed.

Kinda what I was getting at.

Dr. Yang didn't ignore the "distractions" of going to college getting a degree and building a life.

I think what he's doing sounds cool but I don't think it's gonna work for anyone involved.

[shuaichiao]

That's the point, with proper and dedicated training even a "spoiled rich kid" can be transformed into a martial artist.. and, just for the record, being wealthy does not exclude someone from having the dedication and drive necessary to complete the training.. that notion is prejudiced or envious....

Actually it's neither. If he truly wants to pass down the highest quality martial arts to people who will continue to teach it then he should find a way to pass it down to the best possible students not the best students who happen to have a hundred grand lying around. I should point out that when Dr. Yang learned he did so while he both worked and went to school so if he feels he's qualified to teach people to such a level then why does he feel like that's the only way somebody else can achieve that level?

[Ford Prefect]

As predictable as the seasons.. the critics appear.. Dr. Yang is putting his money and his reputation out there for the world to scrutinize.. few of us can say the same..

It's called having an opinion, Bob. People are allowed to have opinions based on observations. From the sounds of it, SC has a good deal of personal experience with Dr Yang as do I. I even prefaced my post by saying he was a good guy and instructor, so that people would understand it is my opinion of this undertaking and not him Yang himself.

As for the money issue, Ford.. the student will be carefully screened, informed in detail as to the terms and conditions and no one will force them to accept the offer..

I am aware of all the details of the retreat. My point is that college applicants are screened as well. Many people don't end up having a career for what they went to college for and many more switched majors while in school. Most people change their beliefs and priorities from when they were 18 years old.

That is really only an ancillary issue. Since this center is attempting to garner tax exempt status, their finances are open to the public and they post them on their website (http://www.ymaa-retreatcenter.org). The proposed yearly salary Yang is going to pay for himself is $160,000/year for those 10 years ($1,600,000 total). Likewise he personally owns these facilities, so he (the "retreat center") is renting them from himself at a clip of $13,600/month or a total of $1,224,000. That right there is $2,824,000 he is personally making off this.

Now also count that this Retreat Center is paying out $349,000 for "recruiting costs" and that since he is running this as a non-profit, he will rely on donations for the bulk of these operating costs. In the end, he makes out with the land, facilities, and at the very least $2,824,000 in salary and rent through the Research Institute. That's not bad for running a non-profit for 10 years.

($200,000 is being financed by Yang to build... I don't think Yang will have a problem paying them and the land off with his "rent" from the Research Center.)

Like I said, I could just be a pessimist. This just seems like a racket to me.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Quote removed at the poster's request, the original post deleted

The "deposit" is an incentive to complete the training, moreso if it is returned.. AND, Dr. Yang is considering "scholarship assistance" for students in certain circumstances..

Likewise he personally owns these facilities, so he (the "retreat center") is renting them from himself at a clip of $13,600/month or a total of $1,224,000.

Agreed, and do you suppose that he didn't invest his own money in this venture.. is he not entitled to recoup some of that investment..

Dr. Yang learned he did so while he both worked and went to school so if he feels he's qualified to teach people to such a level then why does he feel like that's the only way somebody else can achieve that level?

He states that he wants to improve on his original situation. he recognizes that the experience and knowledge gained over his life in TCMA is too comprehensive to doled out to large numbers of students attending classes on "their schedule".. he, and i am speculating here, has a goal that differs from the goals that most people wish him to have.. i think he is 61 years old, at completion of the training he will be in his 70s.. he wants to produce highly trained, competent, and business-wise teachers.. people that can move his art into the future.. it's HIS vision.. He intends to pick young, intelligent, talented, and dedicated students.. from those that succede, they will be young enough to open the art up to a much wider group, i see the wisdom in his process.. even though i wish i were in a position to take advantage of such a generous offer.. i can't think of any Universities that give you your tuition back to start a business..

Again, i admire his vision and dedication.. AND, if he can make money while doing it, what's the rub? Speaking of "romantic" notions, free kung fu training for the dedicated desciple would fall into that category.. If Dr. Yang can pull this off, i think it can only help the Art.. and, i am for anything that helps CMA..

Be well..

[YouKnowWho]

Sounds fun to have 15 partners for your own training for the next 10 years.

Bang, Bang, Bang, and Bang. 4 down and 11 more to go.

[Ford Prefect]

Agreed, and do you suppose that he didn't invest his own money in this venture.. is he not entitled to recoup some of that investment....

He has every right of course, but I will call a spade a spade. I won't chaulk it up to an admirable or noble deed, when the guy is making out like a bandit. He is:

1) Making $1,600,000 in "salary" through this 10 years.

2) Making another $1,224,000 in renting these facilities to his non-profit over the next 10 years.

3) All expenses for this time will be paid via donations.

4) At the end of these 10 years he will have $2,824,000 CASH which is more than enough to pay off the land and facilities financing. He will have a boat load of money AND he will have a fully paid for, fully equipped training facility (non profit is spending $15,000/year on equipment) in the moutains which will allow him to scrap the non-profit since he personally owns the land and facilities. He can then turn the whole thing into a commercial venture after making out like a bandit running a "non-profit" one. Basically he has people donate money to him so he can pay off his mortgage, make millions, and then turn the product of the donations into even more commercial gain.

I have a tough time swallowing what is so admirable and noble about that. I admire him for his business sense. I won't make it seem like he is gracing the world with this gift out of some noble sense of duty when it is set-up like that.

*This is not speaking for his amiability or his instruction. Both are great.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Suppose, for the sake of arguement, that Dr. Yang has, as his first priority, a noble cause.. and, as a by-product of that, a way to make money.. i find no fault for making the money over a 10 year period considering he will be in his 70s when the plan matures.. i applaud his "business-fu".. calling "a spade a spade" is a comparison to your personal perspective and not of necessity any link to the reality of Dr. Yang's personal goals..

Be Well..

[Ford Prefect]

If the cause were noble, then why not buy the land and facilities as the non-profit research center? This would ensure that the research center could function well into the future as perscribed by him well past the time he passes.

Instead he is using donations to pay for his personal facilities, his personal land, and millions in cash of these donations go straight into his own pocket. He could privatise the whole thing in 10 years, make it into a fully commercial kung fu camp charging whatever tuition he can, and turn the rest of it into his private estate. The non-profit basically has no control over anything.

calling "a spade a spade" is a comparison to your personal perspective and not of necessity any link to the reality of Dr. Yang's personal goals..

Right. Yet again, it's called an opinion, Bob. Just like what you're typing.

[SanHeChuan]

Well he's not making his money off the students so it's not like he's fleecing them, so I don't really care how much he makes. He's worked the system with out taking advantage of his student, so good on him.

But there's no way in H@ll I'd give him a donation, are you kidding me!

[cjurakpt]

the impetus for his undertaking notwithstanding, there are a few things that strike me as potential snags in the whole scheme:

1) how many 17 to 22 year olds have $30,000 to plop down for a year of training? how many have $90,000 to plop down over 5 years? how many have parents / benefactors waiting to do the same? not many; I really wonder where this $ is going to come from? as for getting it back, does that include the interest earned from the high-yield long-term CD account or bonds in which it will likely be deposited?

2) 10 years is a long time: I find it a bit unlikely that the majority, if any, of the 15 will make it through: how many of us new "for sure" what we were going to do with our lives at that age, and then turned around a few years later and realized we were doing something completely different? and what are the criteria for dismissal? there had better be a pretty well-defined mechanism for someone to get the boot, including an independent review / appeals process; also, what if you get injured and can't continue? what if he decides to bag it half-way through? or gets sick or worse? a LOT can happen in 10 years, and putting all ones eggs in this basket is pretty risky from a life-decision perspective; personally, I'd have taken people in their 30's - much more likely to know for sure what they want to do, and also a lot more maturity, finished sowing wild oats and all that - a lot less potential interpersonal crap coming along with them, which brings me to...

3) I hope Dr. Yang has some training in interpersonal / group psychology, because when the sh1t hits the fan in terms of the intragroup dynamics somewhere around the 6th month (never mind year) when people start to go a little stir from being up in the woods and doing a lot of heavy breathing, hoo-boy...also, will it be co-ed? 'cause if that's the case, it's gnona get even uglier, really quickly when the hormones start raging and the jealousy gets going (I mean, if they're up there for 9 months a year, doesn't he realize they're going to be shpoinking each other sooner or later?)

4) as for the argument on the site that $9,000/year is much less than most colleges, college is only 4 years, and when you get out of college, although it costs a bit (not much) more, you at least end up with a degree that the rest of the world cares about in terms of a credential...if you spend $90,000,and spend 10 years or so training that leads to an MD or law career - a bit more potential return on your investment I'd say...

5) right now, it sounds like he's on probation as a non-profit, which means if you donate and take the deduction, if it doesn't get approved, you will get your money back (at least in theory), and you'll have to then pay the tax on it subsequently...

it's a nice idea on several levels - but I think that the all or nothing approach sets everyone up for failure a lot more so than it need be; it sounds like he's trying to cement in a group, but the reality is that life is full of changes: it would make a lot more sense to have a residential training of 3 years max, finish that and then see if anyone want another term: also to have people coming in for shorter term study - oherwise, it's like trying to force an ethic onto people that doesn't really apply in this day and age: I know that no one is making anyone do this, obviously, but I think he could be more skillful in his application of this - it's great to havea a vision and a dream, but maybe to be a bt more realistic in achieving it...

I wish him luck though - I hope he knows what he's in for...

[YouKnowWho]

1) how many 17 to 22 year olds have $30,000 to plop down for a year of training?

That's absolute right. Those who have money are not interest in CMA. Those who are interest in CMA don't have money. If you want to lead a CMA team and compete in foreign countries then you usually end with a group of rich boys. This is the problem in CMA teaching. It's easy to teach CMA for fun but difficult to make a living out of it (not even to mention the medical insurance, stock option, 401 K, and pension plan).

[SPJ]

I was talking to a couple of friends about the idea.

Here are some summaries.

2 years programs are more "do-able"

grouped into 5 groups.

A. Shaolin fist.

B. Shuai Jiao (general/Tai Chi)

C. Qin Na (general, Shaolin 36 Zhua, Tai Chi etc)

D. Push hands.

E. White Crane.

2 years basic, 2 years intermediate, 2 years advanced. at the end of each period, there will tests or certifications. the student may pick one group to major. leave Chinese language to language schools, leave Chinese medicine to Chinese medicine school.

the tuition comes from donation of each school. the student upon finishing going back to original school to teach for 2 years to pay back the tuition.

the thing is that there are so many stuffs, some would take a life time to "complete" or learn just a few.

--

[Royal Dragon]

First off, if he were really interested in promoteing TCMA, he'd be looking for 18 desciples, not just 15......

Second, if I were him, I would make sure he also offered degrees in Sports medicin, and physical therapy, that way his desciples end up with a mainstream degree in a modern, and common career field, in addition to thier Kung Fu.

Third, I would not demand 10 years up front. Like stated above, I would break it down, only I would go with 3 year courses. The first would be Long Fist, and obtaining the 2 year physical therapists (assistant) degree offered in most colleges. The second 3 years, would move on to more depth in his martial arts methods, and teach beginning accupressure, and accupunture, and finally the most advanced stuff would be taught in the last 3 year course.

If he does it this way, those interested in getting into the sports medicine field as a career will likely do it because they would accompish thier career goals, as well as thier Kung Fu goals.

If he only does this 9 months out of the year, it will be like going to a 9 year college, during the winter session, and be off for the summer, which is what college guys are used to doing anyway.

Lastly, as an after thought here, If I were him, I would not limit it to just 15, or 18, but just offere the series of Three, 3 year courses to anyone who can get a student loan.

If he does this, he will be succsessful, because his students will be getting actual practical modern career skills as well. They could even persue this instead of a regular college education.