Yang Jwing-Ming's kung fu retreat?

[Water Dragon]

I dunno, doesn't seem feasible to me in modern society. It's a noble idea though.

[Royal Dragon]

He would need to be offering a degree in something modern, besides just Kung Fu.

If he taught 4 hours of Kung Fu, plus 2 hours a day of a regular college, that ar Modern career minded courses, I think he could do it. My guess is those who are intrested in careers in Sports medicine, and injury rehab would be his most likely canidates, as Kung Fu would be an extension of thier current intrests, and career goals anyway.

[Faruq]

If Kwong Man Fong or Chin Suey Dor was the one doing this, I'd be there in a minute!

[YouKnowWho]

He would need to be offering a degree in something modern, besides just Kung Fu.

Brendon Lai had tried to offer CMA BA, MA, and PhD degrees through The Univ. of Hawaii and it didn't work very well. I do believe short term goal such as 2 - 3 years is much easer to achieve than 10 years long term goal. If you are more interest in "combat" than "art" then 2 to 3 years will be a good section.

[Faruq]

Can you imagine what the product would be if it was Chan Sau Chung doing this? It'd be amazing! Dr Yang really seems to have a noble heart to even want to do something like this. No one else'd try to do it, that's for sure. He's like Bai Si'ing 10 people at once! Has anything like this happened since the 1640's? Unfortunately, I wonder if anyone's true character can be assessed via a selection process they propose. I wonder if he shouldn't start with 100 people, from which he could whitle it down to 10 over the course of a few years?

[SPJ]

overall, 10 years are too long. each student may progress differently. it is only an arbitray time at best.

some may move fast and then a block or a hurdle needing more time to advance.

some may be sick or injured for a while.

some may have family matters or personal things and have to have leave of abscence.

many things may happen in 10 years.

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the idea of 10 years is actually from the saying "10 years of hard study near the cold window, and one day you pass the exam. You may have the name and an official position (Gong Ming)". it is only a figurative speach 10 years vs a day. for most people it took more than 10 years.

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the idea of Kung Fu training is actually: you go to the mountains and practice since you are a youngen, when you grow up or 10 summers and 10 winters later, you come out and avenge your family or teacher of the opponents". Again 10 years are figurative speech. The main thing is that when you are mature or grown up. it is very difficult to "mold" or increase your physical ability. You have to start young. period.

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[Faruq]

I've heard that before, but I've also heard that some styles, like the ones supposedly spread to the populace by the survivors of the burning in the 1640's, were designed to be completed in 5. So many legends, which one to choose? Maybe it depends on the style.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We all have opinions (me too, Ford).. but, Dr. Yang is putting his opinions, his beliefs, his experience and his business savvy on the table, while we talk Dr. Yang is "doing".. 10 years is quite a long time, true.. so, anyone willing to make that committment passes the first test, willingness..

I have sat with Dr. Yang at dinner and listened to the passion in his voice for this venture.. he seems genuinely sincere, and has a developed curriculum.. i will be interested to see the results.. and, that's the only way we'll "know" how it works out.. patience.. and, a willingness to believe it's at least possible..

Be well..

[Samurai Jack]

I want to start off by saying that I highly respect Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. His books have raised the bar for CMA, in fact all martial arts books worldwide. I have several friends who have trained with him, and everyone has had nothing but good things to say about his skill, his integrity, and the caliber of students he produces.

All of that said, I personally have serious concerns about any group with such a charismatic leader choosing to isolate itself for TEN YEARS. It is doubly frightening to know that the members of this proposed community will be very young impressionable people. There will undoubtedly be tremendous peer pressure involved in the venture; it isn't possible to avoid. There will be conflicts. There will be tremendous turmoil as the group dynamics will inevitably be at odds with each student's basic (and still developing) sense of individuality.

You have all of the makings of a cult here, and the part that worries me most is that it appears that these dynamics are being put together deliberately. I have personally worked in mental health for ten years now. I have also lived for a time as a member of a Zen monastery. I know groupthink and cult behavior backwards and forwards. The level of commitment being demanded here makes it very clear that this will not be a democratic organization. Yang will be in charge of everything. The students will be completely dependant on him for food, shelter, and the community for companionship and support. This is a dangerous ****tail because the leader of this organization will not have been raised in a monastic environment himself for an appreciable length of time. It's an important distinction, because it seems very clear to me that there is a lack of experience here. Nobody seems to know what he or she is getting in to, least of all the leader.

Some aspects of Cult behavior that could be pitfalls of this program as it has been laid out here:

1. The Guru is always right.


In this venture Dr. Yang appears to be the one running the whole show. He will be selecting the students, he will own the property that they live on, he will be teaching them personally, he will be scheduling their lives, and he will presumably be feeding them. Furthermore he’s a recognized kungfu master who will be looked up to and respected as an authority by all of his young protégés. It is highly unlikely that any of them will have the strength of will to do anything to oppose Dr. Yang’s will, should things get out of hand.

2. You are always wrong.

The young people being selected are obviously too young to have firmly entrenched personalities from a psychological standpoint. Years of research into military boot camps, isolationist cults, prisons and even college fraternities have all but proven that all people are highly malleable when subjected to environments that favor groupthink and community over the needs of individuals. Young people tend to be more susceptible to these influences than older people, thus the preference that many cults and institutions have for younger members.

3. No exit.

While it isn’t obvious from the description of the proposed program, there does not appear to be much recourse for individuals who take issue with the teacher or the group. It is very “all-or-nothing” in that a student loses his or her investment (in time and finances), as well as membership in the community and approval of the “guru”… powerful motivators; irresistible for 99% of people.

4. No Graduates.

Here it appears that people who complete the program will be able to open their own schools. This carrot is somewhat suspect as it is being dangled on an extremely long ten-year cord. In the mean time, no one will be able to come close to Dr. Yang’s skill level, which will of course reinforce his control over the group. As fighting will presumably be part of the curriculum, there is the added danger that the unconscious message that “you will never be done with this” will be reinforced again and again.

5. Cult speak

Students will be required to learn Chinese; a foreign language for many of the students. This is worrisome, because once again the students thoughts and very self identity will be under the control of the teacher, who has fluent mastery of the language. This particular aspect of cult behavior is particularly worrisome according to cult expert Robert J. Lifton:

” Beginners have to learn all of the new terminology in order to fit in, and understand what is being said. Then, the new language has the effect of separating the newcomer from his old world, and from his old circle of friends. His new friends will tell him that ‘Only another member understands’, and it will be true. When he babbles nothing but cult-speak, nobody but another cult member will be able to understand.”

These are just five of the most basic hallmarks of cult behavior. I am not trying to lambaste Dr. Yang, but rather point out that his program, as outlined, appears to be somewhat dangerous. Ten years is enough time for even those most well-adjusted and good intentioned group to succumb to disaster. I would sincerely like to see such a venture as Dr. Yang is proposing succeed, but several important things would have to change within the program itself if the outlined pitfalls were to be avoided.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It's interesting how over the years i've been on this forum there have been numerous posts lamenting how there was no authentic monastic style training.. how, in the "old days" the masters carefully selected their students.. how they trained secretively.. how they produced highly trained dedicated and loyal disciples.. Now, someone tries to do it, and.. people look for the faults.. predict, without evidence, the failure of such a notion.. and, call to question the intentions of a respectable teacher..

I have been fortunate to be acquainted with Dr. Yang for quite a few years, now.. and i sense no "cult" inclinations, rather the opposite.. as i understand his motives, it is to help the selected students transcend the mundane training found in the public venues.. to take them to a place in their own lives where they would likely not be able to go on their own.. I'm not going to pre-judge this venture, if it works out favorably, i will applaud Dr. Yang's efforts.. if not, i will be a vocal critic..

This type of training is not for everyone.. between a youngster's desire and Dr. Yang's selection criteria, there should be a better than even chance of success.. Money is not the only issue, there is natural talent, quality of character, physical condition, and understanding of the challenge ahead.. If it works, it could be a model for future ventures.. if not, it will serve as an example to modify future similar attempts.. in any case, it's a first step..

It's an ambitious venture both for the teacher and the student.. if Dr. Yang feels that 10 years is the appropriate time, it's his call.. it's his venture.. no one forces a student to do this, and anyone is free to leave as they choose.. this will weed out the mediocre, it will cull those unable to handle real pressure, and, if successful, should produce a generation of highly qualified teachers.. well-versed in a comprehensive martial system.. it is a reasonable attempt to raise the bar for CMA..

Be well..

[Samurai Jack]

My training is hardly mundane, but you definatly bring up an interesting point. What Dr. Yang is attempting to do is certainly admirable, however the building of a monastic community is VERY different from the operation of a martial arts school. It requires a different set of expectations, and a different "educational model" if you will, from what most of us have been exposed to in public martial education.

First there needs to be very clearly dileniated roles among the members of the community. In order to assure successful educational skills, the teacher must of course be in charge of how the "in school" program is run. Most monasteries have a building set aside for training, and there's a reason for that: outside of class time, the students are typically running the day to day operation of the rest of the program. Even in old style Zen training a small group of senior students were in charge of such things as meal planning, building maintainance, scheduling activities around training times, and scheduling recreational activties for rest etc. This makes the monastery work as more of a democratic community and keeps the "leader" from dominating too much of the student's lives. Private time needs to be scheduled. This is one key point that helps to prevent problems.

Secondly, there needs to be an body of arbiters, typically peers who support the monastery indirectly by contributing, although proffessionals who are not directly involved with the teacher are often employed (psychologists and lawyers for example), in order to mediate disputes within the community of various legal, medical, of psych-social natures. This board of advisers, if you will, is the body with which the ultimate decision to accept or expel members should be entrusted. While deciscions of the teacher will normally be supported, cases may exist down the line wherin this will not be the case.

There is a great deal of information concerning how to operate such an organization, but again, a venture like this requires a certain level of experience. I'm not saying that Dr. Yang dosen't have this experience; I don't know. I'm just pointing out that some of the advertised features of this training program seem rife with pitfalls. There are ways to set up such an organization that will ensure safeguards are in place, and that good serious training can be endured safely.

[SPJ]

I have no doubts on the perseverance, diligence, and dedication on the part of the teacher.

"10 years are like a day" as the saying goes.

however, most of my skepticism is on the part of the students.

I was a student of several teachers for a long time or more than a decade long.

For the most part, I was practicing the "basics". To grow into a big tree, one must have a strong root. I was told.

The intermediate and advance stuff are only useful, when you have a good base.

I meant for over a decade, I was only practicing the basics.

To advance, it is really up to the students. Teacher may provide guidance. But the student is the one that has to do most of the work.

The idea for one to hide away in the cave, in the mountains or Bi Guan (close the gate) and practice. Actually, you are by yourself to practice, no distraction. at critical point, teach gives you a clue. A teacher being there all the time is a distraction, too.

I meant for the most part, you are by YOURSELF and practice.

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[Shaolindynasty]

I am big on the idead that in order to keep people interested in CMA in needs to be kept in a modern context. The notion that you need to spend 10yrs in seclusion to reap the benifits of kungfu will do more to hurt kungfu than help.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't think so personally. There are sub groups that will allways follow that romantic notion. Then there will allways be those who see it in the modern venues as well. It all depends on where you fall in your own practice.

I think in the long run, haveing this, and making it a sucsess will be a bennifit for kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

A teacher being there all the time is a distraction, too.

I'm with you on this. If the teacher always answers questions then students never have chance to think and find solution for themself. In the long run it may restrict the students growth.