Question for the Wah Lum People

[ironfenix]

In continous broadsword, what is the application for the 3 slices under your feet? What is this move called? I was told once that you stood on someone's shoulder's and then cut his head off. I don't know if i could pull this one off, I haven't been practicing the "mantis stands on another guy's shoulders" move very much. but seriously, anyone have any other ideas? Also I have also seen some people jump up with both legs at the same time. I was taught to pick up one leg then the other. Which one is correct?

[yu shan]

Israel, that is about the most funniest thing I have heard in a long time bro...standing on top of someone`s freakin shoulders! Whoever told you this must smoke the lettuce.

[18elders]

this is what i was told!!

before the 3 cuts, when your squating with your feet together and stabbing up(this is when you stab the horses belly, then the 3 cuts are when your cutting the horses legs!!!).

[ironfenix]

I am guessing that you are under the horse when you cut its legs off right? LOL too funny!!!

[Yao Sing]

Wow, imaginations fly! Those are really out there.

I was told cutting the legs (of opponent, not horse). That's why you have the block behind in between the leg slices. Why 3 times I have no idea.

[Donkwoon]

It could be interpreted as an attack against an opponents legs and then blocking some sort of counter attack with the block in between. That's not a wrong interpretation, it's just that most of these moves teach more general or generic ideas and are not meant to be kept inside a small box when it comes to interpretation. The forms teach moves that each have many applications depending on how you respond to or attack your opponent.

The move being discussed teaches one to be able to get out of the way of your own sword (or someone else's) while attacking. It exercises one's sense of timing and awareness.

I was told that hopping with both legs at the same time was wrong. I think that the one at a time hopping teaches rootedness and timing while avoiding an attack (your own or that of your opponent). This is similar to the double hop that avoids the double sweep in the 2 man set.

3 times? Lots of kung fu sets are connected to or display the number 3 or one of it's derivations. Basically, the number 3 is the number of creation. The primary colors, musical cords, attributes of God ect ect ect. In Chinese numerology it is generally thought that using the number 3 in a practice will ground that practice more thoroughly in reality.

Telling outrageous answers to application questions, such as standing on an opponents shoulders to cut of his head, seems to be a tradition in Chinese kung fu. Silly Humor is good if it inspires one to think for themselves.

[mantid1]

Forms only help develop the things a person may use in a real fight. They help with timing, cardio, flexiblility, strength training, footwork.....etc. So that being said I think a lot of the wl sets were developed with conditioning in mind as much as if not more than the fighting.

Many teachers fail to let their students in on that little detail.

We all know that doing a form will not make you a fighter. Only fighiting with well developed techniques that were perfected while fighting will make you a good figher. Say that three times fast

I like forms for the reason that they give you a little more than just cardio. Much more fun than running a few miles.

I think the problem begins with the instructor. They will teach a student a form and let them believe this is what the fight is supposed to look like and exactly how it is to be applied. It doesnt work like that in wl, 7*,tcpf....or any other style.

I think the low stance and cutting under the legs is to develop strength, flexiblility, timing and coordination. Thats it.

Another problem with instructors is they do not teach the theory or history behind a weapon. They just say "here is a broad sword do these moves".

I would think a bs would be one of the most common weapons for a foot soldeir. That soldier would be more likely to find himself in a BIG raging battle with his enemy all around close in. I would say this is why many of the bs techniques are done close into the body. I could see someone trapped and cutting anyone around. But, I would tell a student its just a form for training and if you ever found yourself in that situation you would without a doubt be DEAD.

Forms are like video games. You can live the dream without suffering any consequences.

[Siuhoimoon]

IMHO, this movement could be a block to a spear atacking your lower parts (in this particular case, 3 blocks to 3 stabs).

I have seem these movements being aplied this way in demonstrations (not from WL) and some movies.

But, like many others movements, it could have many different aplications, like the others mentioned above.

[Chop Socki]

I like the 'defense versus a jabbed spear' interpretation, it's similar to the one I learned.

While it's true that forms are really nothing more than sequences of movements that help you develop strength, balance and the transitions from one technique (with accompanying footwork) to another, I've always felt that one should practice them with realistic scenarios, i.e. defense against realistic situations - in mind. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, that pretty much disqualifies leaping on to someone's shoulders and lopping off their head in 3 whacks.

I've seen this technique - or one very similar - used in a two man weapon set of broadsword versus butterfly knife and shield. The person with the shorter weapon would obviously want to maintain a safe distance much of the time, but when they did move in to attack, it wouldn't be face to face; instead, they would leverage the shield for both blocking and rolling to get into range, then cut up into the unprotected legs and groin of their opponent. When that happened, the broadsword user would lift one leg and block, then lift the other leg to avoid a second slash. In that scenario, the over-the-head part is more of a completion of a circular repeated movement than a specific technique defending/attacking something overhead.

This is the one I learned, though I love learning alternative applications from others. The head lopping one... man, I'd love an evaluation of all my techniques from that guy.

Regards to all,

- CS

[ironfenix]

I take forms pretty seriously, as i believe applications come out of forms. I teach all the applications I can from a particular set but I tend to focus personally on only a couple of them which are the ones that fit my body. There are some applications that I like that my students might not like and vice versa. As far as moves being added for coordination purposes only i tend to disagree. Why not try adding some DDR moves or hop scotch stuff. I think if it is in a traditional non-wushu form it must be for a combative reason. I think letting a student think for themselves is great, but I would still give my interpretation of the move. To allow a student to come up with all the applications is a dangerous thing to the quality of that student. Teachers in schools are supposed to teach kids how to add and subtract, not to let the kids figure it out by themselves. The question is whether or not the teachers actually know how to add or subtract for themselves.

I think the spear move might work best. I still like the belly cut / leg chop the best though!

[yu shan]

Good discussion and concepts about this topic. You stole my thunder Mantid, very good post sir. Personally I was not told what the tech. was for this and always thought it was a bizarre movement. It does take some coordination to pull it off though. Any of you gentleman ever run this question past Master Chan? I never got to this one was too busy trying to get info on other things. Nice thread seeing all the negative energy flying around as of late. Hope everyone as a nice Thanksgiving!

[yu shan]

....just spoke with my kf brother and he told me that this was originally a jump up into a full split while cutting underneath. He thinks MC changed it because no one could do it. I can halfway believe this, because I have seen video of some old WL forms and they were much more difficult.

[ironfenix]

Now I get it, I am not standing on his shoulders, I am jumping clear over his head! LOL I believe the changing as I have heard this before about other moves in WL that no one could pull off except MC.

[Yao Sing]

To the best of my recollection it was a jump (although most do one leg at a time because it's easier) and MC said it was leg cuts to opponent behind you.

Notice that you lean forward, that would be defending a head slice attack while simultaneously attack his legs.

That's waht I got when I asked. But I could be wrong.

[spiralstair]

Yao is correct on the app.
A long long time ago it was almost like a split in the air, not so much like: one
and two, but like: onetwo, done fast and kick like. 25 years ago.
Then those Sifus got old, and now it's: one and uh... two