Collecting forms without understanding their application.

[Knifefighter]

You know, I'd almost buy the "training time" line, if amature hobbiest boxers looked that bad too, but when a guy who only boxes 3 X a week for an hour looks better.......

LOL @ 3x/week boxers being better at standup... in what fantasy world do you live? Oh, I forgot... the CMA forms dancing fantasy world.

And when are we going to see your clips?

And when are you going to answer the question of who taught you?

Oh, that's right... you are self-taught, train by yourself, and the closest you come to actually fighting is dancing around doing your forms.

Gotta love the CMA forms ballerinas who have never fought in their lives who put down the abilities of pro fighters.

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, that's right... you are self-taught, train by yourself, and the closest you come to actually fighting is dancing around doing your forms.

Reply]
I just learn from videos

[FatherDog]

You know, I'd almost buy the "training time" line, if amature hobbiest boxers looked that bad too, but when a guy who only boxes 3 X a week for an hour looks better.......

I've never seen or heard anything out of you that suggests you'd have the slightest idea what good standup looks or feels like.

As far as I'm aware, your sole foray into training in person with anyone worth **** was with WaterDragon's group, and ended with you whining about them playing too rough.

After all the ridiculous things you've said about fighting on this board, I don't really think your opinions on anyone's standup are worth arguing about.

[Knifefighter]

As far as I'm aware, your sole foray into training in person with anyone worth **** was with WaterDragon's group, and ended with you whining about them playing too rough..

You mean he actually went and sparred with someone... can't be.

WD is this true?

[Royal Dragon]

No, we never sparred. I was still injured, and should have been on my own at the time.

I used to spar with a Kempo friend of mine through most of the mid to late 90's though.

[Knifefighter]

No, we never sparred. I was still injured, and should have been on my own at the time.

I used to spar with a Kempo friend of mine through most of the mid to late 90's though.

That's it???
That's the extent of your sparring experience???
With a kempo friend for a few years back in the 90's????

[Royal Dragon]

Umm Yeah, with that one guy only...never met anyone else since I started MA in 1989....

[TAO YIN]

Knife,

Fair enough about the psychological experiment.

I would like to ask you a serious question. I thought to make a new thread about it, but maybe I will later. Which is scientifically more beneficial for the "true fighter" to condition on when he doesn't have any other partners around to beat the snot out of? Working all kinds of combos and attacks on a "traditional" heavy bag, a thick piece of iron hanging from a rope, or a tree log hanging from a rope? Why?

[Knifefighter]

Knife,

Fair enough about the psychological experiment.

I would like to ask you a serious question. I thought to make a new thread about it, but maybe I will later. Which is scientifically more beneficial for the "true fighter" to condition on when he doesn't have any other partners around to beat the snot out of? Working all kinds of combos and attacks on a "traditional" heavy bag, a thick piece of iron hanging from a rope, or a tree log hanging from a rope? Why?

From a scientific view, the most important principle is known as the SAAD principle (specific adapatations to applied demands- aka specificity of training).

This would indicate that the heavy bag would be the most beneficial of the three choices if there were no partners to work with. The reason for this is that this is the closest to the three options in terms of what it would be like against a live opponent and you would be able to work the techniques and combos that would more approximate what you would do against an opponent (specificity of training) .

Additionally, the heavy bag would allow you to work longer and harder (increased demand = increased conditioning) without incurring the injuries that you might when striking the harder objects, although the harder objects could also be used as supplemental training for conditioning to strike against harder, bony areas.

[lkfmdc]

I wish that SPM teachers would teach the 108 on the first day, full on applications, full contact.

Other than the full contact part, why not address the actual essentials of a system from day one, with drilling and applications? That's sort of the point here. Why has CMA developed a culture where the fighting is almost LAST in sequence?

It's sad that Pak Mei, Dragon, SPM, Wing Chun, hell...and any other system or systems you want to throw in there, don't just take all of their best two man stuff, most practical conditioning, sensitivity drills, and methods... put them all together, throw western boxing to the mix too, and make for the "UNSTOPPABLE HAND SYSTEM!"

This is essentially how we got San Da you know! OF course, WHY did it happen? It took China being invaded, the entire government falling down, China becoming the sick man of Asia and hundreds of thousands of people dying just so the old stubborn, close minded Sifu would sit down and exchange knowledge and see what was actually practical... sort of sad really

[Ravenshaw]

Other than the full contact part, why not address the actual essentials of a system from day one, with drilling and applications? That's sort of the point here. Why has CMA developed a culture where the fighting is almost LAST in sequence?

[...]

This is essentially how we got San Da you know! OF course, WHY did it happen? It took China being invaded, the entire government falling down, China becoming the sick man of Asia and hundreds of thousands of people dying just so the old stubborn, close minded Sifu would sit down and exchange knowledge and see what was actually practical... sort of sad really

I'm usually more of a lurker, but I gotta say, excellent post.

Exposure to new styles and the kind of criticisms that KF is giving us can only help CMA. If nothing else, it forces us to think critically instead of searching for justifications. Let's not shut out the hard questions.

[TAO YIN]

Knife,

Thank you for your response. Another question that has been bothering me for a long time...From a scientific viewpoint, is it truly bad for a person to hit heavy bags, or these other types of objects as well, in the cold? I have heard many, many times that a person will get "Fung Sup," (drying of the bones due to the wind.) Is there any true science to this? Fedor must be immune to "Fung Sup."

lkfmdc,

Great post. I agree with you totally. I would love to see teachers addressing what really matters. Also, I think it is really sad. Then again, it just ain't gonna change any time soon. Too many Sifu losing money, not enough face gained, too much effort, not enough horse stance training. Also, we have to remember that not everyone who walks into a Gung Fu school wants to compete. The majority probably don't. They want to know how to fight. Whether they do or not usually doesn't matter because... A) 99 percent of the people who walk into said school aren't going to get into any fights throughout their lives. B) The small percentile of people who do are going to get into a small scrap with someone who fights about as shiity as they do, not other martial artists. And C) Well, I could go on and on but why.

Teachers make money off fight fantasies. Not fights. Teachers make money off if. Not does. So, hopefully for those students who practiced "Thrust Finger Straight Punch," ten thousand times, one day some drunk will swing at them with a wild left cross, and they'll be able to react to it because they have done it ten thousand times. Hopefully, they did at least one two man drill for it and saw its applications too...(Sighs)

[lkfmdc]

we have to remember that not everyone who walks into a Gung Fu school wants to compete. The majority probably don't. They want to know how to fight.

How often do the windows, flyers, newspaper ads, etc for schools say "self defense"? Easier question, how often do they NOT say "self defense"? Fighting isn't everything but clearly most people think when they are going to a martial art school they are learning a skill which can be used in a "fight". Most schools are woefully deceiving their students....

99 percent of the people who walk into said school aren't going to get into any fights throughout their lives.

To borrow a quote,

"just because you are not interested in war does not mean war is not interested in you"

Quite a lot of people are going to experience violence in their lives in one form or another.

The small percentile of people who do are going to get into a small scrap with someone who fights about as shiity as they do,

It's a dangerous assumption....

[David Jamieson]

I'm happy with how I train.

[TAO YIN]

lkfmdc,

Ok. I agree with you. Most schools are woefully deceiving their students. I like your quote, but seriously, when is the last time you were involved in serious violence? Where were you? What time was it? What kind of violence was it? It's different for different places, times, and kinds of violence. If you were in a bar at 2:00 in the morning and you got into a fight, well no wonder. Did you kill the man? Did someone call the police? If you were walking down the street in broad daylight and someone just randomly attacked you, well, so be it. I'm sorry that people can't keep their decency during the day.

So, by your rationale we need to show people gun disarms day one. Show people how to knife fight properly on the first day. Show people how to defend against gang beatings on day one. These are the types of violence people are more prone to be involved in. Not one on one colliseum matches. I never have seemed to get into any knock down dragouts at the bank. Then again, I have never been inside a bank when it was being robbed. Should we train people for bank robberies? I have never been in a convenient store when it was getting robbed, and perhaps I'm lucky? Should we train people for this? What kind of violence are you talking about training people for? Anytime I have been in a fight with one or more people, it was either because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and should have been at home minding my own business, I got caught up in what was being said and decided to just be a diick in general, I was out looking for a fight, or what not. And let's not even get started talking about women's self defense...

I agree my assumption before is dangerous, but it is somewhat true. It's common to train people in martial arts to fight or fantasy fight in a challenge-type death match. They're just not that common from the hours of 6 in the morning and 9 at night. Actually, they are just not that common at all. Common not meaning you see someone ever day do it. Common meaning you see 100s of people every day do it. What type/ types of violence should we really be focusing on in our schools?

This question about forms is like saying why do people buy clothes. Why don't they just make them? Why do people collect antiques? Can't they just look at their lawns? Why do people take care of their lawns? Can't they just let the grass grow? Why buy lsd when you can make it? Are you lazy or something? Why do people believe in Jesus..., it hasn't really changed much of these last two thousand years has it? Why do boys chase girls who don't like them and girls chase boys who don't like them? Why? Why do people who stay at bars until 3 in the morning and then walk alone down dark streets and back alleys to get home become shocked when violence happens to them? And on, and on, and on...It doesn't matter why, it's what people do.