Collecting forms without understanding their application.

[Royal Dragon]

The best way to correct the bad habit in a judo toss is to do it with a partner, not solo.

Reply]
There are many times I have endless frustration with a partner, but solved my issue by isolateing the technique in the form, and working the mechanics of it solo.

YouKnowWho's Hip throw example is a classic example of this.

It's not a matter of partner work is superior to solo work, it's a mattter of knowning when to do what, and which tool works best in which training situation.

If one needs solo work, all the partner work in the world will not help. It may actually be detrimental.

[YiLiQuan1]

- In the majority of CMA training, and especially in any CMA training that will yield halfway decent results, forms are a very small percentage of training.

Unfortunately, not 100% accurate (nor what I think I was trying to convey).

In the majority of CMA training (at least the majority of what I've encountered outside my own school - mileage may vary), you do forms (a la "run, run, run, and pose!"), followed by forms, and then some more forms, none of which are ever really explained fully.

Regrettably, the bulk of most CMA training is a bunch of hooey sprinkled liberally with qi-this and qi-that. There are some very, very good schools out there, but they remain (as with almost any martial art) the exception to the rule.

- One doesn't learn an entire form first and then try to apply the individual techniques against a partner. Forms are done after you have already learned, practiced and sparred with the individual techniques.

That's how it's supposed to be. There's really no point to forms training if you don't have the techniques already in your arsenal... It's like knowing that those fancy theorems you learned in algebra class will result in a workable equation, but not knowing how to plug numbers in to make the equation work. The form isn't relevant and without an understanding of how the techniques work in the first place, the form has absolutely no usefulness whatsoever.

That having been said, given that some forms are quite lengthy (for a variety of reasons, not all of which are valid), sometimes you'll start learning a form before you're really "ready" to "study" it. If the teacher is worth 2 cents, he'll/she'll pay close attention to what you are deficient on and make sure you get it learned...

- Forms are only supplemental cardio/conditioning training and maybe a little reinforcement of body movement to be used after learning the individual techniques against a partner.

Pretty close. My karate teacher in Japan used to call kata "Japanese weight lifting with no weights." I was taught to practice forms at three levels - high (for speed), medium (for overall development and application), and low (for smoking your legs with body weight work).

They're also useful as "text books," conveying lessons (taught previously during verbal, in person instruction) that are more easily remembered via physical performance (it's like the use of symbols to convey complex concepts - much is conveyed in only one simple symbol, and the same goes with forms).

- Forms are performed very close to, or exactly, the way they would be done in actual fighting.

As much as possible... Real fighting is sloppy and unpredictable. You train for perfection with the firm understanding that it's going to fall to complete sh** later... But if your technique is far closer to perfect than the other guy's, you're likely to do better than him...

- Everyone understands what each movement is for because they have already practiced those movements in the context of having an opponent.

Probably closer to the ideal than the norm, but it's the general plan...

- Additionally, the techniques are pretty much put together by each individual practioner improvisationally while he is doing the form - just like the free form shadow boxing done by boxers.

Sort of. When forms were originally created (or so the lore goes), the fighter creating said form took combinations he'd used successfully (allegedly in real fights), and linked them together. Gradually, the form evolved as more information was "encoded," such as footwork to demonstrate the distance covered or the anticipated range of an incoming strike, the angle of application for a particular combination, or the method of entry for a throw, choke, lock, etc.

If you were so inclined (and I was required to do so as an exercise in form understanding for my last test), you could do a "build-a-bear" form... Fer instance - start from a natural stance, deflect an incoming right handed (his, not yours) straight punch with an upward movement of your arm (as if executing an upward elbow strike), then execute in rapid succession a straight right of your own followed by a low line right roundhouse, stepping down with the right foot, grasp the opponent's head a la Muay Thai and execute a left flying knee into his gut. There's your first, what, 4 - 5 movements? Then maybe show a shuffle step to close distance as you execute a kick-based series... Incorporate a single/double-leg shoot if you wish, or a defensive sprawl against same... And bingo, you got'cherself a form...

In that case I revise my stance on forms training... at least when they are done in the method you are saying they are done.

You know what? I'm still on your side of the fence, though! Most folks that I've run into, some even from good quality schools, are drawing blanks when they really get to work on their forms. I'm not saying my teacher is a god, nor am I saying I'm a forms master with secret knowledge. My teacher, my seniors/older brothers, and I have just been lucky to find honest, ego-free training. So have some other folks I've trained with, but sometimes they've lost a few of the keys to "getting" WTF they're doing...

I guess I was quite off in the way I thought most CMA people were training with forms... sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for the clarification.

No worries, man... It's all about the learnin'... That's why I do Army Combatives, judo, and BJJ when I can find it! No end to learnin', no beginning to the ego. Empty cup and all that, eh what?

[YiLiQuan1]

And it's worth mentioning, just for grins, that even ol' Brucie did forms... Quite a few of them, in fact, including Taijiquan!

His argument about robotic, prearranged responses was his rebuttal against waza-like techniques (e.g. "he does this, you do that") as opposed to having a variety of options available.

Enjoy.

[Sifu Darkfist]

ah, yes, the secret schools we hear so much about





this is my vote for funniest post of the year.....

whatever, be well

To be sure there is nothing secret about training proven fighters,

What you call mixed arts i call military arts and martial arts for standard.
I love the art of training competitors as well as police etc. a good Shifu can do both without qualifying it as i am sure most of the Shifus on this forum are great.

I am just not willing to throw away the background just because its the New and acceptable thing to do. I will admit i am an old confucian scholar and prize Loyalty and honor to my ancestors above all else.

I am also not at liberty with my time to exchange several hundred posts on this topic so i will suffice to say time is the only proof that a historian needs.

Of course it always helps to attack the topic and not the other debators, it shows a confidence in ones own perspective. Therefore i will say success to all systems of any name or creed.

[Royal Dragon]

Unfortunately, not 100% accurate (nor what I think I was trying to convey).

In the majority of CMA training (at least the majority of what I've encountered outside my own school - mileage may vary), you do forms (a la "run, run, run, and pose!"), followed by forms, and then some more forms, none of which are ever really explained fully.

Regrettably, the bulk of most CMA training is a bunch of hooey sprinkled liberally with qi-this and qi-that. There are some very, very good schools out there, but they remain (as with almost any martial art) the exception to the rule.

Reply]
This is not Traditional Kung Fu though, it's modern dance.

In a Traditional school, even if you learn the form, or short section of it the first week, it's all apps, and twoman drilling of those techniques which progressivley leads to free sparring before you get any more of the form, or the next short form. The form in the air is just sport specific cardio, and used when it is advantagious only.

Conditioning, and weights (Chinese locks, big stones and other stuff similar to Old school strong man methods) are big parts of the training too, as is bag work, and various Iron Body practices.

[lkfmdc]

I am just not willing to throw away the background just because its the New and acceptable thing to do. I will admit i am an old confucian scholar and prize Loyalty and honor to my ancestors above all else.

I am also not at liberty with my time to exchange several hundred posts on this topic so i will suffice to say time is the only proof that a historian needs.

It's fascinating that you put confucianism and history in the same post. Read some history of China and discover how Confucianism and it's "loyalty" to the old ways, never changing, took the most powerful empire in Asia and turned it into the sick man of Asia and a laughing stock

TMA are always in love with the "old way"... the old way was no electricity, no running water, no heat in winter... do you live that way? Since you're posting on the internet it's an easy bet NOT...

WW II was not fought with the weapons of the Civil War,, Vietnam was not fought with the weapons of WW II...

Some people dress up in Civil War uniforms and re-create the battles, but we dont' send those guys off to Iraq to fight our war do we?

[iron tiger]

WW II was not fought with the weapons of the Civil War,, Vietnam was not fought with the weapons of WW II...

True, the technology changes while the underlying principles remain the same...going back to the battles in the Old Testament.

Funny how that is.

[Sifu Darkfist]

It's fascinating that you put confucianism and history in the same post. Read some history of China and discover how Confucianism and it's "loyalty" to the old ways, never changing, took the most powerful empire in Asia and turned it into the sick man of Asia and a laughing stock

TMA are always in love with the "old way"... the old way was no electricity, no running water, no heat in winter... do you live that way? Since you're posting on the internet it's an easy bet NOT...

WW II was not fought with the weapons of the Civil War,, Vietnam was not fought with the weapons of WW II...

Some people dress up in Civil War uniforms and re-create the battles, but we dont' send those guys off to Iraq to fight our war do we?

Actually i am studying Chinese history in depth and revisionist historians show that Confucian theory was not the culprit as much as corruption. . Much the same as we are today fighting Iraq with the same stupid ideas as we did in vietnam.
Read a day in the life of China (on the eve of the mongol invasion) or Heavenly gate by Spence China was turned upside down by a weakened Manchu throne and largely due to Empress Ci Xi. During the time of Japans technological enlightenment the last few Manchu emperors were unwilling to give up the power enough to save China.

In the Annalects Confucius talks of the New throwing of the old when the old passes in order to focus on the practical living of the day. Such is the very reason why confucian theory is not a religion. It does not concern itself with long standing ideology it concerns itself with obeying ones Father or those in Authority until such a day that you are the one to hold the Authority.

In this i will be forever Guilty

Anyway look at my post i Said Loyalty to my Ancestors no the same old way.
All Generations refine to keep things up to date

[YouKnowWho]

The best way to correct the bad habit in a judo toss is to do it with a partner, not solo.

When you work with your partner usually you won't be able to develop your maximum ability. Your concern about your own balance and your training partner's safety may restrict you from doing a perfect body spinning. For example, if you drill your "leg lifting" move when facing a 45 degree down hill, since no matter how hard that you intend to keep your balance, you will still fall anyway since after you have rotated your body pass over 45 degree angle, the gravity will pull you down to the ground. Since you know that you are going to fall, you won't intend to maintain your balance and usually you can develop a maximum body rotation which will really help you in a true combat situation.

Maximum body rotation usually create the maximum body impact during the throwing. It's hard to find a training partner that allow you to throw him with maximum force on the ground day after day.

"Two men drills" can develop combat skill but "sole form" and "equipment training" can bring your skill into a much higher level.

Sorry that I have turned this discussion into a comparsion between "sole drill" and "2-men drill" in the "throwing art" which may not be the original intention for this thread to started with. There are a lot of treasure in TCMA. It's up to you how to train it.

[mattb]

Some people dress up in Civil War uniforms and re-create the battles, but we dont' send those guys off to Iraq to fight our war do we?

Would probably be a lot less trekkies around if we did.

[Scott R. Brown]

Read some history of China and discover how Confucianism and it's "loyalty" to the old ways, never changing, took the most powerful empire in Asia and turned it into the sick man of Asia and a laughing stock

Hi lkfmdc,

It is unfair to place the responsibility on Confucianism.

It might be beneficial here to draw a clearer distinction between Confucians- those who “claim” to follow the teachings of Confucius, and the actual principles taught by Confucius.

It is not uncommon to claim principles are the cause of abuses (i.e. the principles of taught by Confucius) when it is people following their natural tendencies towards selfishness, stubbornness and emotionally motivated egocentric needs that are responsible for the ignorance and abuses that occur. Historically, abuses have occurred no matter what principles are claimed to be the authority to justify them.

This attitude has been frequently applied to Christianity as well. Many ill-informed individuals tend to blame Christianity for the many abuses that occurred when Christianity was the dominant political force in Europe. However, it wasn’t Christianity, and in our modern circumstances it isn’t Islam, that was/is responsible for abuses. It is PEOPLE who commit abuses! Selfish self-righteous individuals in power and authority positions encourage abuses through manipulation by distorting or misapplying the principles that these systems of thought teach!

[mantiskilla]

Some of this sh!t on here is unbelievable. Is this WarCraft? (I work with a guy who is 29 and plays WarCraft online...all weekend, and he also goes to the Medieval Fair...and dresses up even though he is not in it, so I rest my case). I can see some of the people here doing that too...it's like Fantasia up in here.

NO, you do not need to learn forms to fight!
YES, forms are a waste of time (if you just want to learn to fight)!
YES, you are always better off learning against resistance! Not always full out fighting, but also drilling and partner work to 'figure things out.' Alignment and structure need to be tested against RESISTANCE!
IF, you do not have a partner, the next best thing would be a heavy bag, or other assorted resistance training tools.
FORMS will not make you a fighter.

I can teach someone to fight using the principles of a system WITHOUT teaching one single form. Drilling of basics is all that is needed to prepare, and then fight! BUT, in a way forms are the drilling of the basics...just not as boring, BUT not nearly as distilled either. You are better off just practicing 'basics' IMO and forget the forms (if you just want to fight). Most people do not have the patience to drill footwork and basics, but those are not going to be the ones dedicated enough to do anything anyway.

ON THE OTHER HAND, MMA is not anything new...but the training is much more effective than most TMA...that's the difference. People always talk about how they can rip peoples throats out, TOO DEADLY, blah blah blah, but they cant even land a punch or maybe more importantly, take one. I'm so fVcking ashamed about the state of kung fu in general that I won't talk to anyone about it, and if they ask I tell them I practice "Chinese Boxing", because when people think about 'kung fu' they picture a bunch of f@gs jumping around in silk pajamas believing they can easily kill people with 'deadly' hands and 155lb bird frame...
________
Xxx Tubes

[banditshaw]

Some of this sh!t on here is unbelievable. Is this WarCraft? (I work with a guy who is 29 and plays WarCraft online...all weekend, and he also goes to the Medieval Fair...and dresses up even though he is not in it, so I rest my case). I can see some of the people here doing that too...it's like Fantasia up in here.

NO, you do not need to learn forms to fight!
YES, forms are a waste of time (if you just want to learn to fight)!
YES, you are always better off learning against resistance! Not always full out fighting, but also drilling and partner work to 'figure things out.' Alignment and structure need to be tested against RESISTANCE!
IF, you do not have a partner, the next best thing would be a heavy bag, or other assorted resistance training tools.
FORMS will not make you a fighter.

I can teach someone to fight using the principles of a system WITHOUT teaching one single form. Drilling of basics is all that is needed to prepare, and then fight! BUT, in a way forms are the drilling of the basics...just not as boring, BUT not nearly as distilled either. You are better off just practicing 'basics' IMO and forget the forms (if you just want to fight). Most people do not have the patience to drill footwork and basics, but those are not going to be the ones dedicated enough to do anything anyway.

ON THE OTHER HAND, MMA is not anything new...but the training is much more effective than most TMA...that's the difference. People always talk about how they can rip peoples throats out, TOO DEADLY, blah blah blah, but they cant even land a punch or maybe more importantly, take one. I'm so fVcking ashamed about the state of kung fu in general that I won't talk to anyone about it, and if they ask I tell them I practice "Chinese Boxing", because when people think about 'kung fu' they picture a bunch of f@gs jumping around in silk pajamas believing they can easily kill people with 'deadly' hands and 155lb bird frame...

Great post
I too tell people who don't know any better that I practice Chinese Boxing.
sometimes that confuses them even more.

[SifuAbel]

Hi lkfmdc,

It is unfair to place the responsibility on Confucianism. ...............

It might be beneficial here to draw a clearer distinction between Confucians- those who “claim” to follow the teachings of Confucius, and the actual principles taught by Confucius.
It is PEOPLE who commit abuses! Selfish self-righteous individuals in power and authority positions encourage abuses through manipulation by distorting or misapplying the principles that these systems of thought teach!

Good post.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's what sparring is for. As a general rule, one who has sparred for a while will have learned so much about the technique that he will be able to apply it on the newbie, even if the newbie knows it is coming. During sparring, people will also begin to learn variations on the original application.

That's funny. Because, like I said, most people only learn the kick-boxing/boxing/MMA techniques Kung-fu schools teach right off the bat for basic self-defense in order to appease the newbs so they don't flail around like idiots--and true, they start coming up with variations of those basics in their sparring. (That, for one, shows that the "deadly fu" isn't for beginners--or even effective for newbs--take that how you will). They also spend more time on the bag than I do--b/c our newer instructors tend to focus on that. But the variation that I have seems to "kick-ass" every time, and it comes from "dancing around like a bug" as you humorously put it. I can get them on the ground before they really do much but strike--so maybe striking isn't the best. But chin na is CMA, and it's something akin to BJJ, at times. The best fighter is usually the fastest fighter---outside of the UFC---or the one with hte best technique (ala the Gracies, taking down much bigger opponents). Forms help make unorthodox movements lightning fast...even if it takes a while. My technique is extrapolated from form--and it's worked so well for me---perhaps not everyone--that I'll stick with it.

That's it, though, Knifefighter. I give. I'm beginning to agree with you a little on what the best technique is for training beginners. After all, special forces, police, SWAT all learn in short drill sequences, and I'm not about to mess with a SEAL, or one of those Indonesian soldiers who does KALI.....

Just, forms are the best training for Kung-fu....whether superior or inferior....and we'll leave it at that. I just don't agree with you that MMA experts are better than true Kung-fu Masters. It's give or take, depending on the person...

Personally, I think a good knifefighter is better than anyone else. And no, I wasn't talking about you...