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Thread: Collecting forms without understanding their application.

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    I'm not so sure I buy into that. It has always bugged me when the app doesn't look like the form. Either the app is wrong or the form is wrong. I don't think forms were purposely modified to hide the apps.

    Maybe for public performance but certainly not when teaching your students.
    This is somewhat true with PM, but not really true for LF. PM forms generally don't try to hide the applications, though there are sometimes extra applications hidden within them that may take some thought or guidance to find. LF forms on the other hand are usually performed in a very extended fashion that isn't very realistic. They also will include high-flying kick combinations designed to increase strength, agility and coordination, but which you wouldn't likely use as-is in a fight. This serves a training purpose (train long, use short) and also is designed to hide the applications from casual observers. Longfist forms are full of qinna and throws, but unless you've got a lot of experience (as Youknowwho does), they look mostly like a bunch of striking and pretty poses.

    PM doesn't really hide apps like this, which is why LF people often learn PM in order to understand how to use their LF. LF can be formidable on its own, but you either have to be very smart or have a generous and patient teacher to show you everything. Does that make PM "better" than LF? That's a value judgement depending on your priorities in studying martial arts.
    Last edited by onyomi; 12-03-2006 at 01:21 PM.
    What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?

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  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    You are assuming whole forms fight just one guy. Thats not the way.
    Forms for fighting mutliple opponents are even more ridiculous than forms for fighting a single person.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    I've said it before, the strength of CMA is also it's weakness in many ways... forms DO present the techniques so that there are more than one option.
    ... and, hence, another problem with forms. Without an opponent in the equation, there are no options. A technique practiced in the air is just a technique done in the air. There is no application until you put an opponent into the equation.

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    It becomes a problem when the person practices forms without having a clue as to the material present within them. .
    The problem begins when the person practices forms before he learns how to fight

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Forms for fighting mutliple opponents are even more ridiculous than forms for fighting a single person.

    are you possibly saying that I've wasted time developing deadly techniques like this?

    http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/voice/...issorKick3.jpg

    say it isn't so!
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by onyomi View Post
    This is somewhat true with PM, but not really true for LF. PM forms generally don't try to hide the applications, though there are sometimes extra applications hidden within them that may take some thought or guidance to find. .
    Only in pretend, theoretical fighting can applications be hidden.

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Whole different mentality.... my sifu a PRIME example. Why teach crap when you have good stuff? Don't you care that people who say they trained with you have utter trash?
    Nope, don't care, the people who "know" know about in and out door, etc etc blah blah
    But I also know a lot of people who got out of the door stuff who think they got in teh door stuff!
    If you have a system that constantly tests itself, you can't teach crap. Can you imagine trying to teach your fighters "pretend" techniques. Even beginners would figure out pretty fast that those techs don't work.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Only in pretend, theoretical fighting can applications be hidden.
    At the risk of sounding like an ex-president, it depends what you mean by "hidden"

    In many TMA places, ALL the material is technically "hidden" because anything approaching practical application is totally absent...

    I was in a certain school where a movement which was clearly a set up for a standing arm bar was instead taught as nothing more than blocking a punch... in this case, the application was "hidden"...

    if by "hidden" you mean "blow up a chicken at 30 paces with a special chi blast" then OK I agree completely
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    If you have a system that constantly tests itself, you can't teach crap. Can you imagine trying to teach your fighters "pretend" techniques. Even beginners would figure out pretty fast that those techs don't work.
    Traditionally speaking, ie the "old days" you have both YES and NO

    In the "old days" at least the teacher himself had to know something real and be able to fight. That was because there was always the threat of a challenge.

    But, unfortunately, Confucian ethics, Asian culture, do not question the teacher, patience, in time you will understand, blah blah, hype hype, beg, grovel bow etc and teachers got away with teaching crap, ie NOT what they used in their challenges. to MOST of the students

    It's said to see this mentallity attaching itself to perfectly logical modern North Americans who shop for cars, look for the best cell phone deals, etc but still accept absurd assertions when it comes from a "master"

    In theory, the sports, the alive, the competitive, the MMA schools have to teach effective stuff becuase how are you gonna wrestle, roll, spar and compete with crap?
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenshaw View Post
    I guess the practice ethic must have been different "in the old days" when self protection was more of an issue, but when you don't have to fight all the time in the real world, you probably won't have the initiative you need to learn this way.
    I doubt much real fighting occured "back in the day". If it really was that common, it would be ingrained into the system. Systems that really had fighting "back in the day" have all kept that key value alive by incorporating some kind of continunous live testing methods, such as competition- i.e. fencing, kendo, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, and boxing.

    A system that is based on fighting will always find a way to keep the fighting as an integral part of that system. If your system doesn't have some kind of competitive "fighting" outlet, the chances are, it didn't have much fighting in the first place.
    Last edited by Knifefighter; 12-03-2006 at 07:31 PM.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    I doubt much real fighting occured "back in the day". If it really was that common, it would be ingrained into the system. Systems that really had fighting "back in the day" have all kept that key value alive by incorporating some kind of continunous live testing methods, such as competition- i.e. fencing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, and boxing.
    Lei Tai, Shuai Jiao competition, San Shou, San Da.... lineages that had real fighting "back in the day" tend to still do this stuff, the obvious question is

    .... why is that only about 5% (or LESS) of CMA out there today??????
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    At the risk of sounding like an ex-president, it depends what you mean by "hidden".I n many TMA places, ALL the material is technically "hidden" because anything approaching practical application is totally absent...
    I was in a certain school where a movement which was clearly a set up for a standing arm bar was instead taught as nothing more than blocking a punch... in this case, the application was "hidden"...
    if by "hidden" you mean "blow up a chicken at 30 paces with a special chi blast" then OK I agree completely
    When it comes to real applications, there is no hidden. The word has no meaning and is completely irrellevant to fighting. You cannot have a hidden technique. It is either there or it isn't. In the case of the standing arm bar, there is no technique until the opponent is there.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Forms for fighting mutliple opponents are even more ridiculous than forms for fighting a single person.

    Thats not it either.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post

    if by "hidden" you mean "blow up a chicken at 30 paces with a special chi blast" then OK I agree completely

    LOL!! RPFL Standing ovation!!!!

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Even if a teacher teaches his students 100% correct movement but if his student don't spend enough time to work on it then that movement still won't work for his students.
    Wrestling, BJJ, MMA, Sambo, Judo, boxing, and Muay Thai coaches don't expect their athletes to develop their skills on their own. That is what training is for.

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