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Thread: Collecting forms without understanding their application.

  1. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    You sure about that? Lets have a poll. Maybe in a wushu school.
    There are schools under Kung Fu (and other TMA) banners that do this. You have never seen one?

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    I have no idea who that is. If it is someone with fighting credentials, why be anonymous?

    Until proven otherwise, I can only assume that it is someone who spends time analyzing forms instead of fighting... at least based on his posts.

    tsk tsk tsk, its all lost on you, isn't it. Read slower. read more. It seems you read the post as you quote them in your reply.

    laterz

  3. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    No, you've described technique drills. Something of which exists in EVERY school I have ever seen EVER. Again, its circular, self serving, in and out burger, logic. The myopia thing is getting old.
    How long before a beginning CMA student hits something with full force?
    What percentage of each class time does he spend doing techniques in the air?
    How long before he drills these technique against a live opponent?
    How long before he takes these technique drills and spars with them?

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    There are schools under Kung Fu (and other TMA) banners that do this. You have never seen one?
    I'm not intersested in other TMA banners. Schools that don't go over the fundamentals of their technique? yeah wushu.


    I guess I'm from a by gone age.

  5. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    I'm not following you here. What exactly is the problem with multiple techniques strung together? Just because they're in a certain order in the forms does not mean they always have stay in that order or progression.
    That’s not the way fighting happens. At the most you will manage to pull off five or six combinations at a time and the average is closer to two or three.



    Again, I'm not following. Do you think newer forms would have more value?
    Newer forms coming from a constant testing environment would have more value. Paradoxically, if this were the case, forms would probably cease to exist in any meaningful way. Systems in which participants regularly test themselves against others have pretty much figured out that forms are inefficient and have pretty much done away with them.

  6. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel
    I'm not intersested in other TMA banners. Schools that don't go over the fundamentals of their technique? yeah wushu.


    I guess I'm from a by gone age.
    I'm not saying that this practice is good martial arts. Read the first post of this thread.

  7. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    Right, Like a musician that knows his instrument. One should be able to know what works in what range and what are the outcomes of their movement.
    ALA youknowwho's side kick and elbow example. The elbow wouldn't work since you'd be out of range after the side kick. This is evident to anyone who is keen to all the mechanics of their techniques.
    People who fight know that there are very few predictable outcomes from a specific movement. One might throw a side kick and knock his opponent down… or his opponent might catch the kick and throw on a heel hook… or his opponent might step back and counter with a kick of his own… or his opponent might jam the kick and follow with a punch or takedown… etc, etc, etc…

  8. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    I'm not so sure I buy into that. It has always bugged me when the app doesn't look like the form. Either the app is wrong or the form is wrong. I don't think forms were purposely modified to hide the apps.
    Maybe for public performance but certainly not when teaching your students.
    Just the fact that one might be able to modify a form to hide an application speaks to the bogousity of forms.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Wrestling, BJJ, MMA, Sambo, Judo, boxing, and Muay Thai coaches don't expect their athletes to develop their skills on their own. That is what training is for.
    Wrestling, BJJ, MMA, Sambo, Judo, boxing, and Muay Thai coaches are nicer than CMA teachers.

    Seriously, it wouldn't make sense for them not to have known how to fight "back in the day" because the usual occupation for a martial artist was bodyguard. Forms are just like very long shadow-boxing routines with various training goals in mind. They're only meant to take up like 20% of your time at most. The rest is for solo drills, pair drills, conditioning, bag work, etc. My Taiwanese teacher said that "back in the day" (when he was first training about 45 years ago) he and his classmates would spend at least half their time on jiaoshou (Praying Mantis version of push hands that doesn't require you maintain contact with the opponent). It's not a full-contact death match, but it is pressure testing.

    People have gotten the mistaken impression that CMA training is all forms because they're easy to teach and look pretty. Modern people like to study forms because they're more fun and you don't have to touch people. This leads to a drastic drop in fighting ability over time as even people who could never fight but only do a good form will start teaching.
    What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?

    --The Orange Catholic Bible

  10. #115
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    in my school, can't speak for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    1.How long before a beginning CMA student hits something with full force?
    2.What percentage of each class time does he spend doing techniques in the air?
    3.How long before he drills these technique against a live opponent?
    4.How long before he takes these technique drills and spars with them?
    1. "something" I'm assuming is a pad , bag etc. , First week. maybe even first day depending on who it is and what they know.

    2., 3. and 4. are relative questions. The 2. percentages drop dramatically toward 3 and 4 as the student progress' though the first few months. Again depending on who they are and what they are capable of.

  11. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    Follow the lines, your opponent only has 4 limbs. Its not that hard.
    If it were just a matter of understanding the movement and having only four limbs to work with, anyone with a background in another art could simply jump in and master a new system immediately.

  12. #117
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    so.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    People who fight know that there are very few predictable outcomes from a specific movement. One might throw a side kick and knock his opponent down… or his opponent might catch the kick and throw on a heel hook… or his opponent might step back and counter with a kick of his own… or his opponent might jam the kick and follow with a punch or takedown… etc, etc, etc…
    And he'd still be out of range for that elbow, spin doctor in da house. Its just a combo, IF is the middle word in life. You play "what If" every day of the week, so what?

  13. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    It is on the student to dig deeper. Although , a break and throw would be much more involved than a simple block and punch.
    If the student has to go searing for it, it is a heck of an inefficienct training method.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    If it were just a matter of understanding the movement and having only four limbs to work with, anyone with a background in another art could simply jump in and master a new system immediately.
    If zebras were black they'd have white stripes.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    If the student has to go searing for it, it is a heck of an inefficienct training method.
    True, that school isn't teaching the student that the fight is not a dream at the ends of his fingers.

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