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Thread: Collecting forms without understanding their application.

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Because you are reinforcing motor patterns in an order that probably won't be done in a fight. During the adrenaline dump of the fight, it becomes confusing to separate those ingrained sequences and use ones that are more appropriate. When you have movements that are likely to be changed each time they happen, it is much better to learn and practice much shorter sequences.
    i agree with you on this one. muscle memory is a very important thing to consider. however, you should also consider that there are numerous forms offering different combinations and sequences of the same moves. through enough practice, drilling, sparring, etc. you learn to use the combinations and sequences appropriate for the situation. again this doesn't mean that you use the form in the fight. merely the techniques or combinations from the form.

  2. #137
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    BruceSteveRoy
    Good response, Pretty much what I was going to say.

    One thing for me though is I have a tendancy the think different than most but it comes from my personal experiences so I prefer to stick with what I know rather than follow the flock.

    One thing I don't agree with is the notion of being a slave to muscle memory. Back in my Karate days I heard people say if you hold back when you practice sparring you will automatically hold back in a real fight.

    Personally this has never been a problem. I sparred light to medium contact in class yet swung for the fence in my real fights. I never had a problem going all out in a fight no matter what my training entailed. Apparently this is a problem for others.

    That's why I don't like these generalizations. There's alway a few peeps that just don't fit the mold.


    Another thing is KF keeps arguing as if nobody ever practices anything but forms even though he's been told over and over that's not true.

    I've practiced form a lot and trained at a predominately forms school and I can still pull out moves and combos to work on independantly of the form. It's really not that hard and should be done (although it appears that most everyone is doing this).

    So rather than rely on the argument that forms alone are insufficient (strawman) mayube you can explain more of the negative impact. Like I said, form work has not locked me into form sequence. Half the time I mix my forms up anyhow putting sequences together from multiple forms just because I feel like doing it that way.

    If I was locked into a specific sequence it would take concentration to force myself change the sequence yet I do it mindlessly (in fact the more mindless the better it flows).

    When personal experience conflicts with the advice of others most go with personal experince.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    No... in alive styles, you are taught a technique and almost instantly perform it either with an opponent present or against some type of equipment. Very shortly thereafter, you practice this technique with progressively more and more resistance. You don't string together techniques until you have practiced the individual techniques many times against both opponents and equipment.
    Sorry to interject...
    The above quote is exactly how we train in my TCMA school. Sometimes we don't even do a technique in the air for awhile and just jump into training with partners increasing the speed and force of the technique. Sparring starts slow and more and more resistance is applied.

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  4. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    One thing I don't agree with is the notion of being a slave to muscle memory. Back in my Karate days I heard people say if you hold back when you practice sparring you will automatically hold back in a real fight.

    Personally this has never been a problem. I sparred light to medium contact in class yet swung for the fence in my real fights. I never had a problem going all out in a fight no matter what my training entailed. Apparently this is a problem for others.

    That's why I don't like these generalizations. There's alway a few peeps that just don't fit the mold.
    I've seen it happen to people as well. A few people that break the mold doesn't render the majority moot. fact of the matter is that it happens.


    Another thing is KF keeps arguing as if nobody ever practices anything but forms even though he's been told over and over that's not true.
    by the admission of people on this forum and others, there are schools like that. perhaps it is those schools he has issue with. If yours isn't one of those schools, then perhaps he isn't addressing you?
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  5. #140
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    If you dig deep enough into forms then you may find some interest questions that you may not have answers for yourself. For example, Why

    - WC forms did not include footwork?
    - WC Pon Shou expose elbow?
    - Taiji Pen, Lu, Gi, An did not include hooking leg and footwork?
    - Bagua circle walking cross legs?
    - XingYin 1/2 stepping move leading leg 1st?
    - Baiji wraps your opponent's arm, strike his groin, knee his chest, and then throw him?
    - LF kick right leg and punch left arm at the same time?
    - LF uses back leg for side kick?
    - SC form 1 - 4 has only arms movement and no legs movement, form 5 - 6 has only legs movement and no arms movement?

    The answer for the last question is simple, "Since beginner may have difficulty to coordinate both arms and legs at the same time, the forms creator designed his forms to meet the beginners need". If you agree with me on this assumption then the conclusion that you may draw from this may be, "If you train your forms just the way as you have learned then you may just treat yourself as beginner for the rest of your life".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-04-2006 at 05:07 PM.

  6. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    I'm not going to bother telling you that nobody thinks real fights happen exactly like a form becaue you know that. Why to you keep taking things to the extreme?
    Not true. I know a few who do really believe that. I knew a guy who used to always tell me he could hit me with the entire kenpo seven swords technique - it was like a seven technique drill / form they would do. He would try it in sparring all the time, but could never hit me with more than three strikes.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  7. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    SC form 1 - 4 has only arms movement and no legs movement, form 5 - 6 has only legs movement and no arms movement?

    The answer for the last question is simple, "Since beginner may have difficulty to coordinate both arms and legs at the same time, the forms creator designed his forms to meet the beginners need". If you agree with me on this assumption then the conclusion that you may draw from this may be, "If you train your forms just the way as you have learned then you may just treat yourself as beginner for the rest of your life".
    silat is like this also.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  8. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    What? jumping rope?
    that is just supplemental conditioning. In a muay thai class, you may spend 10 minutes per session jumping rope, 15 at the most. How much of a CMA's time is spent doing forms? And for what reasons? stance, footwork, drilling form into muscle memory, for some it's used as a cardio workout, dynamic tension for some, qigong develpment in certain instances, etc. - it seems that forms are a catch all for everything. you could probably teach pigs to fly using forms.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  9. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    Not true. I know a few who do really believe that. I knew a guy who used to always tell me he could hit me with the entire kenpo seven swords technique - it was like a seven technique drill / form they would do. He would try it in sparring all the time, but could never hit me with more than three strikes.
    Hey, it's hard to hit someone with the 4th strike while they are running away and screaming like a little girl.

    I love being a keyboard warrior.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


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  10. #145
    admission that you actually like being a keyboard warrior?

    sorry bud.

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    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Because you are reinforcing motor patterns in an order that probably won't be done in a fight. During the adrenaline dump of the fight, it becomes confusing to separate those ingrained sequences and use ones that are more appropriate. When you have movements that are likely to be changed each time they happen, it is much better to learn and practice much shorter sequences.
    The froms teach you how to flow into correct positions whether they be standing, crouching, on the ground, or moving through the air, off balance, decentered, destabilized, counter-movement, recounter movement, entry, exit, sideways, backwards, shuffling, one legged, hand techniques, feet techniques, elbows, palms, knees, shins, throws, fakes, feints, headmovement, ducking, stumbling, turning, flying, and shooting lasers out your nose...well not the last two but you get the point! I feel and experience when a sparring partner takes advantage of a weakness I have, I can readjust my posture and stance through training built in by the flow of forms.

    I offer this argument just off the top of my head for longer sequences in forms: in a fight you may throw left hook, right cross, right roundhouse kick, jab... but there are so many other things you can do with even just striking that a form offers all the ins and outs of positioning yourself to best execute strikes. This takes a lot of work and effort and time to start to understand...personally I'm barely understanding these things but I see them and feel them for whatever worth I can do them.

    Realisitically, we shouldn't skip rope because we might not have that rope with us when we get into a fight... or don't lift weights because we'll never have a perfectly centered weight above us as we bench press the bad guys...or how about no more long distance cardio (the bible of sport fighters...at least boxers) because a fight isn't going to last an hour? Forms are very sport specific and great for training.

    Heck my Sifu won't take new students unless they have killed at least three terrorists, eaten nails for breakfast, and invaded China! Nevermind hitting pads...we hit souls.
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  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Because you are reinforcing motor patterns in an order that probably won't be done in a fight. During the adrenaline dump of the fight, it becomes confusing to separate those ingrained sequences and use ones that are more appropriate. When you have movements that are likely to be changed each time they happen, it is much better to learn and practice much shorter sequences.
    Even if you've practiced the form a gazillion times your body doesn't just go into auto-pilot as soon as you perform the first move. There may be combinations of 2 to 5 moves in a form that you can then do smoothly without thinking, but that's a good thing, because, especially in Praying Mantis, the combinations are designed with human psychology and physiology in mind. That is, not only do they flow naturally together for you, but they are designed to be very hard to fully defend against. Of course, you don't just do combos in the opponent's face all the time, but having an arsenal of well-designed 3 to 5 move combos you can pull off without thinking is a big advantage. Plus, it's not like they become so ingrained you can't switch them up in the middle if need be.

    Someone was joking about a Kenpo friend only getting 3 hits in of a seven hit combo... 3 solid hits is pretty darn good, don't you think? Also, Praying Mantis forms can usually be broken down into smaller pieces. Often it's just like, "here's one potential combo... retreat/turn around... here's another." It's just like a data bank to record this stuff. You can and should break the forms into smaller pieces and drill them alone or with a partner as well.
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  13. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPalm View Post

    Realisitically, we shouldn't skip rope because we might not have that rope with us when we get into a fight... or don't lift weights because we'll never have a perfectly centered weight above us as we bench press the bad guys...or how about no more long distance cardio (the bible of sport fighters...at least boxers) because a fight isn't going to last an hour?
    Skipping rope, running, and weight lifting are done purely for supplemental training. Rope jumping and running develop endurance and cardio. Running allows for extra conditioning while keeping the chances for overtraining down to a minimum. Championship boxing bouts are 12 rounds = 36 minutes, so one would want to do supplemental roadwork that was about 45 minutes in length. Weight training has been shown to be the most effective method for maximizing strength and explosive power.


    Forms are very sport specific and great for training.
    Forms are far from sports specific. It is extremely rare for someone to fight with movements that are even close to the way they do forms.

  14. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by onyomi View Post
    That is, not only do they flow naturally together for you, but they are designed to be very hard to fully defend against.
    LOL... all techniques are designed to be hard to defend. By the same token, any technique can be "fully defended against"

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    It is extremely rare for someone to fight with movements that are even close to the way they do forms.
    This is why one should train "drills" and not "forms". If one drills simple "nuts kick followed by head punch" combo 1000 times then the reward may be greater than training TCMA form 1000 times. Repeating your forms over and over "without modification" until the day you die is just "plain wrong".

    Forms were designed for "teaching - pass down information" and "learning - receive information" only and not designed for "training - combat simulation".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-04-2006 at 10:57 PM.

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