Collecting forms without understanding their application.

[Royal Dragon]

He is proving the existance of Shortman's syndrom....

[Knifefighter]

OH and Knife, I dont know if you are joking or if you are an idiot, but you didnt address 9/10 of my post earlier, and basically just like beating a dead horse. I know very few fighters in real life that dont respect both sides of the pond. Grapplers tend to be cool guys just as often as boxers, or serious martial artsist fighters as well. Dont know why you are such a d!ck to people, but I guess that is just your thing.

What was the 9/10 I didn't address? The part about the throwdowns? I haven't been to any of these, but my understanding is that 90% of the people who go there are TMA and very few people who actively train MMA fight there. Ray would be a better person to give you input on this.

If you want input about the 46 year-old guy who trains MMA once a week for a year, I think he will be much better than the majority of CMA people who have trained three days a week for a year.

As far as addressing your point about meeting your share of "garbage" MMA guys, I guess the only thing that I could do along those lines would be to ask you which fighters those were and at which facilities did they train.

Was there anything else that I missed?

[Knifefighter]

Wookie, good points on the being able to practice when you are older,

MMA guys will just switch to CMA when they are too old to practice MMA anymore. Then they will get the benefits of both without having wasted their time when they were younger.

[TAO YIN]

Knife,

You missed the part about why you're such a diick to people...

[lkfmdc]

Knife,

You missed the part about why you're such a diick to people...

Just because KF challenges people to examine what they are doing and doesn't buy into the "package" he's being a part of human anatomy?

Maybe it's me, maybe it's today, but wow, people are way too sensitive I think

[Pork Chop]

yeah, i used to hate KF, ST00, and lkfmdc because i thought they were overly harsh & close-minded; but they caused me to take a second to think about what i was doing and address my frustrations with my studies.

I used to get so frustrated being told that I'd have to wait 5 to 10 years if i ever wanted to fight.

I think fight sports are more of what i was looking for the entire time; however I would still love to have a traditional art to practise on my own time- to maybe give me a little flavor and a methodology for use outside of the ring as well.

If those 3 hadn't challenged me so much 5+ years ago, I might still be banging my head against the wall doing stuff I just wasn't cut out to do. I'll always appreciate them for that.

As far as discussion styles go though, i think i'm more in-line with sevenstar and even MP, keeping discussions rational and friendly.

[street_fighter]

Man, you people are too sensative. I'm willing to bet that the only reason everyone says KF is "being a **** to people" is because they know deep down that he is right, and are in denial. If you really didn't see some truth in what he was saying, you wouldn't get so offended. And I guarantee that you wouldn't keep reffering to his "play" video or height...

I don't have enough sparring/fighting experience to get involved in this conversation any further (and if I did, I probably wouldn't want to), but KF's points seem to be much more on the money than what most of the CMA guys are posting on here. Personally, I am not returning to a TMA school until I join an MMA one. I have to get some sound practical experience so I won't be fooled by BBS as I have before. This is in part because of what I have read KF post, so thank you.

[TAO YIN]

lkfmdc,

I was totally and completely joking. I was surely a long way away from sensitive. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that Knifefighter isn't a diick. He talks like a hard on to almost everyone, and it's tirelessly boring to read. Instead of him using his years of knowledge to find out anything good about forms, even just one thing, he sits here and just shiits on them to pass the time and joke, ALL while talking like he knows every form and system there is.

I'll be sensitive though. I dont like forms either. I'm all about practical. I hate how idiotically ridiculous the Gung Fu world of forms and teacher-student relationship is set up. I wish that SPM teachers would teach the 108 on the first day, full on applications, full contact. It ain't gonna happen though. It's sad that it's not gonna happen too. It's sad that Pak Mei, Dragon, SPM, Wing Chun, hell...and any other system or systems you want to throw in there, don't just take all of their best two man stuff, most practical conditioning, sensitivity drills, and methods... put them all together, throw western boxing to the mix too, and make for the "UNSTOPPABLE HAND SYSTEM!" Won't happen, ever. Too many people losing too much money first and too much face second.

Then again, I'm not going to be as ignorant as to say that forms are nothing though. "Thrust Fingers, Straight Punch"=Lead Left, Right Cross. If Mike Tyson can use a tennis ball to practice his "Thrust Fingers, Straight Punch," why can't the rest of the world?

No matter, eventually it all goes back to getting into the ring, as the ring is the be all end all... Go get big paychecks, and dah, dah... Its as if until some CMAst does a "No Touch Knock Out" on Fedor or Crocop, then all CMA is shiit. Lest we forget the complete and utter disregarding of the fact that the majority of the guys competing, in whatever form of competition they are in (EVEN SAN DA), are world class athletes and the best at what they do. But somehow, somehow, some Joe Doe who goes to Mo Mow's Gwoon on Tuesdays and Thursdays, or some Joe Doe who was an "INNER GATE" disciple 15 years ago, is supposed to go and rock all these guys' worlds? 99% of the competitors who compete NOW can't do it, no matter the format...

Anyways, I apologize. I just get sick of reading the blatantly obvious, the "negative aspects of everything," if you will, post, after post, after post.

[onyomi]

The problem with KF trying to compare the effectiveness of Kung Fu training to MMA training is that there's nothing close to a standard for what Kung Fu training conists of. There are literally hundreds of styles, many with multiple lineages, each doing things their own way. Even with the same style and lineage, two different teachers may run the class in a very different way.

The moves in the forms are pretty much just like they are used in a fight? In Mantis, yes. In Longfist, they are shrunk down somewhat. In Taiji they are sped way up, etc. Forms are a very important part of Kung Fu training? Some schools may spend all their time on forms, some may spend very little. Some styles have hundreds of forms like Praying Mantis, others, like Shuaijiao and Ziranmen have very few, focusing more on "drills." CMA schools don't do hard sparring? Some do, but many don't. Traditionally they all did, generally without any protective equipment. CMA discourages weightlifting? Though some modern teachers decry the practice for some reason, most traditional arts have a variety of equipment exercises designed to build the type of strength important for that style.... and so on and so on...

[Knifefighter]

Knife,

You missed the part about why you're such a diick to people...

Just a little psychology experiment.

Kind of interesting being the guy everyone loves to hate. Sort of like being the bad guy in professional wrestling.

Also interesting that so many people say they get sick of reading what I am posting, but so many respond to my posts. I'm quite surprised people don't just put me on 'ignore'.

[The Xia]

More typical kung fu armchair BS.

If that were true, there should be any number of CMA stepping up to get their paydays.

Thats what happens when you observe things from a distance, you tend to not see them too well.

I didn't say every MMA fighter, I said many. The boxing done by many MMA guys does not look nearly as good as pure boxers. This is a simple observation, that's all. Many MMA guys have excellent groundwork, superb conditioning, and phenomenal tenacity but I see a general lack of striking skills in many of them. I think Royal Dragon put it aptly when he used the words "slug it out". You don’t see good boxers doing that sort of thing. One example of a person who has competed in the UFC that has great striking ability is Cung Le.

[Pork Chop]

I didn't say every MMA fighter, I said many. The boxing done by many MMA guys does not look nearly as good as pure boxers. This is a simple observation, that's all. Many MMA guys have excellent groundwork, superb conditioning, and phenomenal tenacity but I see a general lack of striking skills in many of them. I think Royal Dragon put it aptly when he used the words "slug it out". You don’t see good boxers doing that sort of thing. One example of a person who has competed in the UFC that has great striking ability is Cung Le.

yeah, well said....
my boxing coach can't sit through mma...
i could probably get him to watch ramon dekker and K1-max, i'm pretty sure; but he sees the striking of most mma guys and from a technical standpoint, a lot of the punching is horrendous....

i was reading champioship fighting by jack dempsey again today...
see, i was told at my gym that i don't have much power and i wanted to go back to the guy who has more 1st round KOs than anyone else (including Tyson)...
as an aside, i spent the evening working on the drop step and i think i got it...

I think you guys would be suprised at some of the stuff in his book...
He's REAL big on boxing for self defense, outside of the ring...
He talks about the type of boxing you'd need for "no rules, free for all fighting", when you have to worry about takedowns and techniques like kicking...
Dempsey taught grappling to the military, so he had a pretty extensive background...

he liked punches at range- exclusively straight punches he hates loping overhands. he recommends using footwork to stay away from the clinch, but to throw tight hooks & uppercuts if you get there...

he may not have had much experience with leg kicks, i'm pretty sure he was only 50 years removed from a type of wrestling that was popular back in the day that involved putting on steel toed shoes & kicking each other in the shin til the legs were hamburger; so he might have more exposure than you'd think...

[FatherDog]

I didn't say every MMA fighter, I said many. The boxing done by many MMA guys does not look nearly as good as pure boxers.

Boxers and kickboxers train nothing but boxing and kickboxing six or seven days a week.

MMA fighters have the same number of days in a week, but in that week they have to train kickboxing, takedowns, and groundwork with punches.

Obviously, someone who spends a third of the time training kickboxing is not going to look nearly as good as someone who spends 100% of the time training kickboxing.

Someone who trained kickboxing 100% of the time and entered an MMA fight would look just as good as a pure boxer or kickboxer - right until he got taken down and choked out.

Conversely, someone who trained ground grappling 100% of the time would look just as good as a pure jiujitsu guy... assuming he ever got the fight to the ground.

Because MMA encompasses every mode of combat, an MMA fighter will not look as good as a specialist in that mode of combat, but they will be able to engage competently in all of them.

[Pork Chop]

FatherDog

I understand what you're saying and in MMA i understand that ultimately it's the guy who puts it all together the best, not the one who's the best in each discipline.

On the other hand, there is a chance i could get that coach to sit through a Pride instead of a UFC. Pride guys come off a lot more polished.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, I'd almost buy the "training time" line, if amature hobbiest boxers looked that bad too, but when a guy who only boxes 3 X a week for an hour looks better.......