chi vampirism

[TenTigers]

"child of the Living God, covered in the Blood of Jesus His Son."-sounds lovely. I can't imagine why anyone would have issues with converting to Christianity.
Now, at a theatre near you...Wes Craven's "Testament-the Revenge of the Messiah!"
Yeah, a bit over the top for me. But some of what you were saying has merit. After all, man gravitates toward spirituality. Every culture has this. Every religion/spiritual belief says the same thing, there were many prophets,avatars,buddhas, just in different "languages".
As far as the messiah is concerned, mesheach-in Hebrew, simply means a spiritual awakening of man on earth. It was never meant to be interpeted as any one person. That was a curruption of the original meaning, which came many years after Christ.(you may want to look into the Nicean Council) So, as far as a second coming-don't look for it outside. Look for it within.

[JDK]

"child of the Living God, covered in the Blood of Jesus His Son."-sounds lovely. I can't imagine why anyone would have issues with converting to Christianity.
Now, at a theatre near you...Wes Craven's "Testament-the Revenge of the Messiah!"
Yeah, a bit over the top for me. But some of what you were saying has merit. After all, man gravitates toward spirituality. Every culture has this. Every religion/spiritual belief says the same thing, there were many prophets,avatars,buddhas, just in different "languages".
As far as the messiah is concerned, mesheach-in Hebrew, simply means a spiritual awakening of man on earth. It was never meant to be interpeted as any one person. That was a curruption of the original meaning, which came many years after Christ.(you may want to look into the Nicean Council) So, as far as a second coming-don't look for it outside. Look for it within.

One major difference TenTigers...............


Jesus rose from the dead. Christianity rises or falls on that historical fact.

May I recommend The "Case For Christ by Lee Strobel

http://www.leestrobel.com/
It is an excellant scholarly book of an athiest setting out to prove the Resurrection was a Fraud.......

JDK
PS- And I am familiar with the Council of Nicean.....

[lunghushan]

One major difference TenTigers...............

Jesus rose from the dead. Christianity rises or falls on that historical fact.

...

PS- And I am familiar with the Council of Nicean.....

Dude, there's no proof of this anywhere. There are some books that claim that, but if you look at the other books that were thrown out of the Council of Nicea, you will find a lot of references to things that make a good case that this Christianity cult made up a lot of stories to get converts.

How can you call it a historical fact? There is no historical fact. There is NO PROOF for this assertion. You accept it based upon your belief, but there is no proof anywhere for it.

Anyways, I give up ... I just hope the Falun Gong people don't get on this board again. It's like we got rid of Juna and now we've got JDK.

[JDK]

Dude, there's no proof of this anywhere. There are some books that claim that, but if you look at the other books that were thrown out of the Council of Nicea, you will find a lot of references to things that make a good case that this Christianity cult made up a lot of stories to get converts.

How can you call it a historical fact? There is no historical fact. There is NO PROOF for this assertion. You accept it based upon your belief, but there is no proof anywhere for it.

Anyways, I give up ... I just hope the Falun Gong people don't get on this board again. It's like we got rid of Juna and now we've got JDK.

Not true.
I am willing to bet you didnt even glance a the Lee Strobel Link I posted, let along watch just one or 2 video clips.

http://www.leestrobel.com/

There is plenty of historical recoeds and proof.
Ceasar even sent spies to check out this Jesus who was stirring up such a fuss with reports of Miracles and Healings.

And IF you decide to claim that you dont believe because of lack of evidence, I would be careful going down that slippery slope...you had better be prepared to say you dont believe in much of Early World & American history since you didnt meet them...nor were there any camera's , photographs, etc...to PROVE they existed.

We have about 5900 years of human history without much proof that it really happened..and yet you accept that as fact.

No double standard...more people saw Jesus than Julius Ceasar
Alexander the Great ( 335 BC)
The Babaloynians, Egyptions, Christopher Columbus, ect....I could go on.

It is historical fact that Paul and the early church changed the course of History
( Roman Empire)

Records proving the existance of Buddah, Sun Tzu,( The Art of War) are no more convincing than the ecords of the existance of Jesus as his Resurrection.

I man..we only have drawings of George Washington !!!! How do you know HE really existed ?????

Check out the Lee Stroble, (a hard-core atheist) site...please

JDK

[JDK]

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...lement-of-rome.

Clement ( 30-70 AD) EARLY CHURCH WRITER AND "REPORTER"

[scholar]

The Catholic church claims Clement of Rome as a pope, but the dates you give are off, skewed somewhat backwards by about 30 years.

Look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_I

It is well known academically that there is no contemporary record of Yeshu'ah the Nazorean (YSH NZR in Hebrew). The first reliable writings are ascribed to Paul of Tarsus, the very earliest surviving being from the 50s AD, 20 years after the crucifixion. Professor Bart Ehrmann, a well known authority in New Testament Greek, does a good job of describing how the gospels we have were written and re-written for 400-500 years before the church settled on the version it liked.

It is OK to make an argument for the importance of Jesus as a matter of belief, but if you are going to argue facts, you should have them straight first.

[NJM]

Not true.

We have about 5900 years of human history without much proof that it really happened..and yet you accept that as fact.


JDK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

Oh, would you mind not double-posting? You can edit your posts, you know.

[Justaguy]

Not true.
I am willing to bet you didnt even glance a the Lee Strobel Link I posted, let along watch just one or 2 video clips.

http://www.leestrobel.com/

There is plenty of historical recoeds and proof.
Ceasar even sent spies to check out this Jesus who was stirring up such a fuss with reports of Miracles and Healings.

JDK

There are no contemporary historical accounts of Jesus. I don't say that to call any of the details of your faith into question. But if anyone living in the time of Christ did write about him, there is no existing records of it.

Josephus wrote about him, but he was born in 37AD, after Jesus was already dead. The Gospels were written around 70AD.

I didn't have time to root through all of the sites that you linked to - if you can point to the specific contemporary records of Jesus' existance, please do. If Ceaser did send people to spy on Jesus and they did leave record, that fact somehow has been neglected by every book I've read on the history of Christianity.

It took some 300 or so years before there were accounts of the life of Sun Zi, whatever thats worth.

[JDK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

Oh, would you mind not double-posting? You can edit your posts, you know.

Didnt realize I double posted...sorry

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat3.htm

...So much for "Carbon Dating"....it has been disproved along time ago.

JDK

[JDK]

There are no contemporary historical accounts of Jesus. I don't say that to call any of the details of your faith into question. But if anyone living in the time of Christ did write about him, there is no existing records of it.

Josephus wrote about him, but he was born in 37AD, after Jesus was already dead. The Gospels were written around 70AD.

I didn't have time to root through all of the sites that you linked to - if you can point to the specific contemporary records of Jesus' existance, please do. If Ceaser did send people to spy on Jesus and they did leave record, that fact somehow has been neglected by every book I've read on the history of Christianity.

It took some 300 or so years before there were accounts of the life of Sun Zi, whatever thats worth.

There are at least 5200 Manuscripts in existance, most all agree in info, on the existence and reliability of the acts of Jesus of Nazereth

http://www.intervarsity.org/evangeli...rticle_id=1598

Please take note of the Chart on Link showing the much longer time periods of information and writings of other historical figures.



JDK

[Justaguy]

There are at least 5200 Manuscripts in existance, most all agree in info, on the existence and reliability of the acts of Jesus of Nazereth

http://www.intervarsity.org/evangeli...rticle_id=1598

Please take note of the Chart on Link showing the much longer time periods of information and writings of other historical figures.



JDK

Those are not contemporary historical accounts. A contemporary account would be from the time in which Jesus was alive - that page suggests that such records probably existed, but we only have documents that are derived from those documents.

[NJM]

Didnt realize I double posted...sorry

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat3.htm

...So much for "Carbon Dating"....it has been disproved along time ago.

JDK

The information on that site is corrupt because it is written in a pro-creationism context. These are the people who think that if you traveled >6000 years into the past, you would end up in empty space. Carbon dating is only less accurate than one presumed, but it can still give a general sense of the object's date. Pease do not try to pull the "well you can't see the air but it's there" theory. Why do you need to search for facts about Jesus's existence? If you really have faith you wouldn't have to search for proof of his existence.

[scholar]

Radioisotope decay rates are a constant, subject to environmental factors that affect absorption. Calibrating Carbon 14 data with tree ring surveys has provided excellent results, and archaeologists and other scientists rely on the info they get from carbon dating all the time.

Carbon 14 has only been disproved to those who already wanted it disproved.

This is no longer an argument, it is a shouting match, so I'm done. I mostly just wanted people to know that there are those of us who find value in intelligently discussing religion. Religion is an emotional subject, but it is a mistake confuse emotion with spirituality. If the emotion is coming from a confused person, it is confused emotion, and is easily manipulated for money by unscrupulous mega churchers, for example.

No, there has to be real, practical value in the ethical nature of any such discussions about what the great religious teachers taught. Jesus taught mercy and forgiveness, yet how much of that have we ever seen from the "Bible Belt"? Blind church ritual and loudly repeating "approved" magic spells do not create stable societies where people are allowed to grow and learn. They create a climate of fear where social security check grannies fork over their life savings to self-appointed theocrats who live high on the hog with their mansions, yachts, sportscars, booze, meth and prostitutes.

Investigating, thoroughly, the history of any religion or group of religions is essential. Don't trust what modern followers say, you have to go back to the source to find out what really happened, for yourself. It's worth it.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

[JDK]

Radioisotope decay rates are a constant, subject to environmental factors that affect absorption. Calibrating Carbon 14 data with tree ring surveys has provided excellent results, and archaeologists and other scientists rely on the info they get from carbon dating all the time.

Carbon 14 has only been disproved to those who already wanted it disproved.

This is no longer an argument, it is a shouting match, so I'm done. I mostly just wanted people to know that there are those of us who find value in intelligently discussing religion. Religion is an emotional subject, but it is a mistake confuse emotion with spirituality. If the emotion is coming from a confused person, it is confused emotion, and is easily manipulated for money by unscrupulous mega churchers, for example.

No, there has to be real, practical value in the ethical nature of any such discussions about what the great religious teachers taught. Jesus taught mercy and forgiveness, yet how much of that have we ever seen from the "Bible Belt"? Blind church ritual and loudly repeating "approved" magic spells do not create stable societies where people are allowed to grow and learn. They create a climate of fear where social security check grannies fork over their life savings to self-appointed theocrats who live high on the hog with their mansions, yachts, sportscars, booze, meth and prostitutes.

Investigating, thoroughly, the history of any religion or group of religions is essential. Don't trust what modern followers say, you have to go back to the source to find out what really happened, for yourself. It's worth it.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

Excellent well documented Link Scholar.
Logical...and well researched.

It doent change the fact that Jesus rose from the Grave.!!

He showed Himself to many...

John 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

We also have Paul's writing later...that MOST the very eyewitnesses were still alive at the time of his Letter to the Church at Corith..and some had died.

1Corthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above [u]five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present[/u,] but some are fallen asleep.

As I mentioned before. these early believers and eyewitnesses were tortured, hunted and killed when Nero leveled Jeruselum...and yet they stuck by their story, unwilling to recant even in he face of watching family members die right before their eyes.

I highly recommend Foxes Book Of The Martyrs...it gives a chilling account by a person who had no reason to make up his accounts of the suffering of the Early Chruch once persecution broke out. It is a trusted classic, by believers and non believers alike

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/foxe/martyrs/?id=foxe/martyrs


JDK

[lunghushan]

I didn't say there was no historical evidence of Jesus. I said there's no evidence he rose from the grave.

There's also stories that the Romans stole Jesus body from the tomb because they were worried if his body was there that he'd become a martyr, and this is where all the stories of 'rose from the grave' came from.

Anyways, whatever. All I can say, JDK, is I absolutely abhor Christians because of people like you. Religious fanatics, IMHO, are the curse of this earth, and even worse than just regular stupid people.

BTW, if you prove with science that someone can 'rise from the grave', then maybe it will give your claims some credence. But until then you do sound pretty much like a lunatic. At least though you're not claiming to have seen Satan like my dad claims he has.