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Thread: OT:Chinese Thinking and Philosphy and effect on MA

  1. #1
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    OT:Chinese Thinking and Philosphy and effect on MA

    Just how does the thinking play into the evolution of what we know as CMA.
    How can we be called closed minded and have so many substyles?
    What is the role of Confucianism?
    What about North thinking versus south?
    What about Pro Emperor or Anti Emperor?

    I Hold that Confucianism is the reason China still exists as one of the oldest powers the world has known due to the respect for ones elders and the love of ones state above the love of their own personal gain. Although everything needs to be moderated, which idea is right and why do you think so?

    Keep it clean please (attack issues not people unless they are public and dead i.e. Chaing or Mao stalin etc.)

  2. #2
    Realism is as much important in the evolution of CMA.

    1. Song Dynasty, since the Song Tai Tzu arose from the civilian circles. MA practices were allowed in the civillians. There are also "styles" organized groups.

    a. "the tale of watermargin" spoke of 108 styles.

    b. due to strong Jing/Liao and western Xia, Song had to defend constantly along the borders. the famous general Yue Fei devised many sets or styles to train soldiers against invaders. General Yue was credited with many fighting sets.

    2. Yuan or the mongols came. All MA practices were under secrecy. Yuan was overextended across the eurasia. Many cults or secret societies were formed. Including Ming cult/Jiao eventually rose up and established Ming.

    3. Ming built the most extensive great walls or Ming walls. There were constant infightings between the east and the west factions of eunichs. They developed all kinds of cruel weapons. such as the arrows that are not removal with reverse hooks etc. Ming emperors were totally weakened. Again secret societies formed to fight against the eunichs. Ming also saw the sails of general Cheng He/ho to africa etc.

    4. Qing from the north east came along. secret societies supporting Ming were formed. Ming was considered rule under Han majority and not outsiders. Shaolin and Hung gar were banned. only a few "styles" were allowed.

    5. Kuo Shu guan were established to test and gather MA people to train military in the ROC era,

    6. Cultural revolution in the 60's and early 70's banned MA practices in PRC.

    7. Wushu arose after cultural revolution ended quietly with Mao's passing.

    --
    Last edited by SPJ; 12-11-2006 at 08:56 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPJ View Post
    Realism is as much important in the evolution of CMA.
    Traditionally, there are 5 (military, teaching, property security, body guard, and bandit) and a half (entertainer) vocations for martial disciplines in China. Each has its own set of circumstances. That's why there are so many styles around.

    1. Song Dynasty, since the Song Tai Tzu arose from the civilian circles. MA practices were allowed in the civillians. There are also "styles" organized groups.
    Song Taizu was not a civilian. He was not a member of the "noble" or aristocrates class for sure. He was a military commander equivalent of the rank of Colonel today. He and his brother masterminded a coup and took over the throne. Prior to his time, military structure was based on feudal loyality. Troops, who were mostly farmers, were drafted whenever there's a need for war. This means there was no such a thing as professional soldiers. You have warriors leading drafted troops, who would be returning to the fields when the war is over.

    a. "the tale of watermargin" spoke of 108 styles.
    that's just novel writing. It's not a proof of anything.

    b. due to strong Jing/Liao and western Xia, Song had to defend constantly along the borders. the famous general Yue Fei devised many sets or styles to train soldiers against invaders. General Yue was credited with many fighting sets.
    It was Song Taizu's policy to centralize control over the military institution in order to solve the feudal warlords problem. That helps to unify the country as well. By centralizing, all troops are now under the Emperor's direct control and are professional soldiers not draftees. This is reflected in the "watermargin" (ie Lin Chong" is the head instructor of 800, 000 troops). Professional soldiers means that they will be trained to do what the military job is required. Draftees are just ordered help. Big difference. So the notion that General Yue started training the troops isn't accurate.

    2. Yuan or the mongols came. All MA practices were under secrecy. Yuan was overextended across the eurasia. Many cults or secret societies were formed. Including Ming cult/Jiao eventually rose up and established Ming.
    Ming Jiao is more or less a fictionalized cult made popular by Jin Rong's (Louis Cha) Wuxia novel. It is based on legends and myths of Ming Taizu's rose to power. There was a grass root movement of blending different religions (Buddhism, Daoism, Muslim, Zoroastrianism, etc) in Southern China. The White Lotus cult became so strong in taking advantage of expanding its demographic by including almost all known religious powers in the south at the time. It is known that the head of White Lotus during the end of Yuan dynasty has the title of Ming Wang (King of Brightness) which is reminiscent of Zorostrianism's mian doctrine. It is also where the Ming Jiao legend came from.

    3. Ming built the most extensive great walls or Ming walls. There were constant infightings between the east and the west factions of eunichs. They developed all kinds of cruel weapons. such as the arrows that are not removal with reverse hooks etc. Ming emperors were totally weakened. Again secret societies formed to fight against the eunichs. Ming also saw the sails of general Cheng He/ho to africa etc.
    The eunichs were the ears and eyes of the Emperor. But the servants pretty much took over the reign by controlling the masters who relied on them. They spied on everything including the military. Cheng He was a eunich as well. He's charged to sought out the dethroned Emperor Wei Men (?) by the sea route.

    4. Qing from the north east came along. secret societies supporting Ming were formed. Ming was considered rule under Han majority and not outsiders. Shaolin and Hung gar were banned. only a few "styles" were allowed.
    Qing Emperors banned the cults and martial arts in the beginning but they saw that martial arts (militias) can help in fighting bandits and pirates. So eventually they let people to do martial arts. BTW, the schools and system loyalty thing was established during the Ming dynasty.

    5. Kuo Shu guan were established to test and gather MA people to train military in the ROC era,
    The ROC government saw that most Chinese are not physically fit and they also needed to boost morale and patriotism. So they came up with the Guo Shu ( National Art) idea.

    6. Cultural revolution in the 60's and early 70's banned MA practices in PRC.
    no comment

    7. Wushu arose after cultural revolution ended quietly with Mao's passing.
    Wushu was the brain child of Mao and San Shou (the sport) came along during the 90s (?). It is the communist party's way to control the populace through fragmentation of martial academia by sportification. Also, it brings in foreign currency and investments which were hard to come by during the early days of the PROC.

    Mantis108
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    I don't know if I'd call state-enforced loyalty and patriotism any kind of "old power" such as is now the norm under the PRC. The virtues of independence and interdependence really have nothing to do with China's last century. It's more like complete and utter dependence. I don't know if that's what you're talking about, but it should be a byline to your intro. Character development is limited. It's just prescribed...never really realized....

    If you've ever read "Atlas Shrugged" or "We, the Living" by Ayn Rand, you'd see what I mean by the complete overhaul of any kind of system--and yes, Communism was a big overhaul of tradition on many levels in China--not just Russia.

    One reason CMA manage to survive with such prominence is their close links to culture, history, and art. It's also the reason why CMA is so close minded. When generations pass and hand-off ritual, stressing the importance of regimentation, structure, form, and repitition, people take it as an insult when the system is challanged. You seem to be challanging an entire national/cultural identity, rather than something really small---and it's taken as a slap in the face to whatever master you're learning from. If you turn left at the wrong part of a form, people tend to say, you're doing it wrong. Oh, am I? Does it really matter if I turn left or right, or do a back handspring, or fall flat on my face? If you don't train enough, we tend to say: hey, you're a real slacker--even if that person works 2 blue collar jobs 80 hrs a week. Back in the day, hard work, a.k.a. "kung-fu", described the effort one put forth in everything. I don't think that definition carries much weight today. I'm no advocate of the: "hey, as long as you try hard" kind of approach. I think it was Confucius who said something like: "Why should I bow to an old fool? He has simply proven that he's never gone beyond his foolishness."

    But maybe an American touch here or there is a good thing. After all, most CMA guys didn't stay in China during hte Cultural REvolution. They came here.....

    Thank god...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Darkfist View Post
    Just how does the thinking play into the evolution of what we know as CMA.
    1. There are many ideas of practicalism. The centerline, the nose, fist and lead foot aligned. Defense built in every posture. To shrink or contract is to protect. To extend/open is to attack. To yield, to lead, three levels, the front and back etc.

    2. ideas of Yin/Yang or two sides of everything and change.

    3. borrowing forms/xing from things and animals we observed.

    etc.

    How can we be called closed minded and have so many substyles?
    substyles would be personal interpretations/expressions/modifications of the same main styles.

    What is the role of Confucianism?
    Kong Fu Zi is more about an ideal society where everything is in an order strung by mutual respect and benevolence or Li.

    What about North thinking versus south?
    Each has its own developments and evolutions. Some northern styles went south and received adaptations.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post

    One reason CMA manage to survive with such prominence is their close links to culture, history, and art. It's also the reason why CMA is so close minded. When generations pass and hand-off ritual, stressing the importance of regimentation, structure, form, and repitition, people take it as an insult when the system is challanged. You seem to be challanging an entire national/cultural identity, rather than something really small---and it's taken as a slap in the face to whatever master you're learning from. If you turn left at the wrong part of a form, people tend to say, you're doing it wrong. Oh, am I? Does it really matter if I turn left or right, or do a back handspring, or fall flat on my face? If you don't train enough, we tend to say: hey, you're a real slacker--even if that person works 2 blue collar jobs 80 hrs a week. Back in the day, hard work, a.k.a. "kung-fu", described the effort one put forth in everything. I don't think that definition carries much weight today. I'm no advocate of the: "hey, as long as you try hard" kind of approach. I think it was Confucius who said something like: "Why should I bow to an old fool? He has simply proven that he's never gone beyond his foolishness."

    But maybe an American touch here or there is a good thing. After all, most CMA guys didn't stay in China during hte Cultural REvolution. They came here.....

    Thank god...
    Actually i respect both of your perspectives and humbly disagree. With The Shoalin Wookie i would say replace the attribution to survival and the first place the masters fled to Taiwan and the words would have more accuracy. THe best combatants were involved with the government in some form due to the nationalist mentallity that was brought to a fervor during the communist awakening.

    THose that were true hardcore Chinese and did not wish to leave but could not bow to marxism fled with Chaing to ROC or Taiwan. There you will find the greatest masters all the way up until the call of prosperity promised a new use for the masters who (reluctantley) moved to America. Even after there migration here it took them decades to trust American Students (some still do not) due to the tumultous past experienced by the CMA MASTERS.

    Actually as fdar as conflict is concerned Communism has effectively slowed the once internal war and strife experienced by Zhong Guo.


    As for the Esteemed Mantis 108 much of the refined arts that we use today were used more recent than the past you have declared in your post.
    I understand the tendency of Most Zhong Guo Ren to avoid Attribution to the Manchu or even to those resisting the Manchu (thus acknowledging the foreign rule of China), however it was the Manchu Emperors (esp Kang Xi) that displayed a need for diversification in CMA or just Chinese Military Arts. In order to Unify the entire nation they were able to allow those with talent to use theirs in the arenas without a high level of supremacist attitudes.
    Example, Kang Xi bows to Kung Fu tze's Grave sight. Also he uses the infantry Skills of the Ming the naval skills of Shanghai, the Calvary skills of loyal Mongols or decendants thereof. Later they Refined CMA for personal bodygaurds and would routinely hire Well Known Ruffians to teach the Guards( we all know the participation of outlaws into the innovation of madern mantis).

    So i would say to leave out the Manchus no matter how they were hated would be a wrong regardless of how corrupt or hated they were.

    However i still would like to know your views on the role of Confucius on CMA and its evolution or as the MMa guys would argue lack thereof.

  7. #7
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    Smile Hi Sifu Darkfist,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Darkfist View Post
    As for the Esteemed Mantis 108 much of the refined arts that we use today were used more recent than the past you have declared in your post.
    I understand the tendency of Most Zhong Guo Ren to avoid Attribution to the Manchu or even to those resisting the Manchu (thus acknowledging the foreign rule of China), however it was the Manchu Emperors (esp Kang Xi) that displayed a need for diversification in CMA or just Chinese Military Arts. In order to Unify the entire nation they were able to allow those with talent to use theirs in the arenas without a high level of supremacist attitudes.
    Well, my friend, it is a good point that you brought up. Great thread by the way.

    Personally, history is history and we can't change what happened. It is however about what we can get out of the "lesson". In our generation, we only have impressions of Qing dynasty rulers namely the Manchurians. So, I don't have feeling towards them one way or the other. Like everyone, I have impressions of how they come to be rulers, their governing and downfall.

    Now that's out of the way, I believe the Manchurians weren't the bad guys that some would believe. They were like many other ethnic groups in China (Mongolians, Muslims, Tibetants, Miao, etc) mostly suppressed by the Han group. They weren't happy with the perceived unfairness that the Ming dynasty dealt to them. Their "reason" to invade China was the so called "7 great grudges". Kind of like the Confederacy in America during the Civil War, they originally wanted a peace treaty other than taking over China. But as the political and military blunders that Ming imperal court made, the Manchurians were able to swallow up China. Winning the war is one thing, governing a country with a populace like China is absolutely another thing.

    Example, Kang Xi bows to Kung Fu tze's Grave sight. Also he uses the infantry Skills of the Ming the naval skills of Shanghai, the Calvary skills of loyal Mongols or decendants thereof. Later they Refined CMA for personal bodygaurds and would routinely hire Well Known Ruffians to teach the Guards( we all know the participation of outlaws into the innovation of madern mantis).
    Well, there's a lot of romancing "Kang Xi Da Di" But it is probably true that he's the first amongst the Qing Emperors to adopt Chinese culture and education. Through out Qing dynasty there is a continuous effort to create a canon of scholaristic studies (mainly Confucian). That's why we have the Kang Xi dictionary and the Si Hu Quan Shun (4 vaults of complete books). In the early years of Qing dynasty, the Manchurian's military structure was the 8 flags troops (all Manchurians). As they have to deal with insurgence and later conquests, they look to the Han groups and established the Green Company for auxilary forces but eventually the Green Company (all Han group) became the regular fighting force as well.

    So i would say to leave out the Manchus no matter how they were hated would be a wrong regardless of how corrupt or hated they were.
    My not mentioning much about them is that I find their period for TCMA is more or less a summary of previous dynasty. The main contribution if at all is the trend for TCMA to integrate into entertainment business and pop culture(Chinese opera, circus, street performing, Wuxia novels, etc). It is far less exciting then Song and Ming dynasty IMHO.

    However i still would like to know your views on the role of Confucius on CMA and its evolution or as the MMa guys would argue lack thereof.
    Confucius was also a fan of sports (archery mainly). He's also spotted with a sword in his attire. No record of him actually fancing exsits but it's not far fetch to believe that he knew something about it. In Chinese "ru" is scholarly studies in civil disciplines but it has become synomonous with Kong Fu Zi (Confucius). Ru actually includes many other forms and factions (ie Mu Zi - militant Ru). Technically, Daoism (philosophical branch) is a form of Ru, which in ancient time studies the 6 classics (poetry, rites, history, etc) that includes the Classic of Change (Yijing). Many don't realize there are much consistency between Lao Zi's Dao De Jing and the 6 Classics. This is why during Song dynasty, there is Neo Confuciusim that seems to have elements of Daoism in this form of Confuciusim when in fact they are related once upon a time IMHO. The Diagrams and scrolls study (Tu Shu Xue) of the Neo Confuciusim namely - He Tu (river diagram), Xian Tian Tu (Primodial diagram), and the Taiji Tu (Taiji Diagram), are the foundation of classical Kung Fu theories. We can safely say that without the Neo Confuciusim movement, there may be Wushu but there will not be Kung Fu. The modern Wushu farce could have happened much earlier on perhaps as early as Ming dynasty! For Kung Fu to be the zenith of CMA, the martial academia of Chinese study, the influence of Confuciusim and in particular Neo Confuciusim is most crucial IMHO.

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
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    Hmmm

    As far as confucian effects on martial arts, i was asking more about how you feel the doctrine of filial piety might have helped or hindered the growth of the arts (regarding the absolute obediance of the student to the master.
    It seems the MMA guys argue that the Chinese Ideologies would not allow for rapid evolution. I disagree strongly, I feel that Filial piety might have tempered and moderated foolhardy ideas that would have otherwise been rushed into in almost all aspects of life. I think that Confucuis firmly established that when you are the eldest it is your job to take the helm and to continue the growth of your family or in this case the combat art.

    THis means alot to me as my oath to my Master is directly in line with these ideas and i am completely subordinate to the idea of Filial Piety and the will of the master superceeding that of the student (provided he keeps the blessing of heaven) or for a less ironic and historic choice of words acts in a way that is accepted under Confucian morality.

    Your knowledge on this subject is imensely helpful and i am enjoying learning from your posts.
    Thank you
    James

  9. #9
    1. Kong Fu Zi is really about an ideal society. Every one has his or her place in that society. Jun Jun Cheng Cheng Fu Fu Zi Zi. A ruler is like a ruler. A minister is like a minister. A father is like a father. A son is like a son. Each has his own responsibility for people above him and under him.

    Kong Fu Zi called this pattern/rule Li. There is a chapter about the society. It is called Li Yun Da Tong. the exercise of Li to reach greatest harmony in the society/world.

    This belief is also called ideology of Ru Jia. During his life time, most kings employed some other disciplines. There is a rule of law or Fa Jia. Fa Jia made Qin strong and eliminate 6 other kingdoms/states. There is another school called the naming or Ming Jia. They like to define everything, why and how or labelling.

    --

    2. Chinese society is founded on the family and extended family. The structure of the family started from tribes or villages. During the weak Zhou Wang/king or spring and autumn and warring periods. the emperor is weakened. the little kings owned states/lands and army. the family of the ministers and the family of generals played very important roles during that 1000 years.
    even after the establishment of the first truely emporer, Qin Shi Huang Di, everything is under one man rule and not the little kings, family system is still very important. in effect, the imperial court is formed by the imperial FAMILY.

    --

    the trades including business, military etc are passed along within the family in each generation. with this structure, it is extended to disciples which are not related in blood but "related" in trades.

    so the fighting skills or trading secrets remained in the family or "extended" family.

    so if you Bai Shi Xue Yi or bow to the teacher and learn his or her trade, you are family. the most important ones would be the first Tu Zi or big brother and the last or closed door disciple.

    yes, only one or the best or worthy will continue the trade as the name bearer of the tradition. others will be fellow practitioners and not responsible for the passing down or carrying the name of the trade. if oldest brother passed away or incapable, he or she get to choose the next name bearer.

    for outsider, the name of the school/trade is enough. for insider, the generation status or Bei Fen is very important.

    --

    not to bore everyone with all the finess or "niceties"

    simply said if you are disciples, you are family. The teacher will pass something to you. It is an honor and also big responsiblities. Some students would shun this at all costs. some would be more than eager to assume.

    --


  10. #10
    other than the responsibilites with your generation status or Bei Fen within your school,

    you pretty much do whatever you wish.

    and yes, sometimes it is difficult to fulfill your responsibilities within family/school and try to accomplish something by yourself all alone at the same time.

    there is upside and downside of everything. I guess.

    but it is nice to be able to belong to a big family.

    these ideas took root in Korea and Japan as well.

    Japanese corporations, societies and governments still run like a family.

    --

    Last edited by SPJ; 12-13-2006 at 09:01 PM.

  11. #11
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    Not to generalize, but from my experience (8 years playing in Chinatown, 6 under the direct teaching of Master David Bond Chan and his mostly Chinese student base at the time) I would say the Chinese aproach is detrimental.

    Three hundred years ago, when people may have actually needed and used these skills more practically, the idea of hierarchy and seniors may have played an important role, much like captains, sergeants, etc, in the military today. Because of that, title or position would more likely be based on realistic ability.

    In my experience, you have Chinese seniors who may have paid good money to become disciples and have followed the master "faithfully." But part of following "faithfully" is not questioning anything and truly believing that the skills you are training are superior to all others in every way.

    This then bleeds into the school atmosphere. Seniors, though they've never risen their fists in anger or defense, are somehow too dangerous to compare against. And newbies, well, they still have two years minimum of structure-building drills before they could be allowed to test.

    The result: no body is using their stuff.

    Then competition comes around:

    The Chinese stuff is too political, or too many rules, not realistic enough, too much form.

    San Da: too many rules, can't elbow, boxing gloves.

    MMA: too many rules, no elbows (amatuer), favor the grappler, etc.

    Again, the result: no body is using their stuff.

    Honestly, and I love CMA, Kung Fu has become ****. I haven't met one pure CMA man anywhere that I wouldn't jump on the opportunity to fight and film... because you just know they will be overwhelmbed, crumble, take a very short beating and then tappity, tap, tap.

    It is dispicable and the blame falls 100% on practioners who suffer from Americanitis... they want the flash and glamor and all the props without getting dirty, working hard, suffering a little, experience defeat and hardships, etc., etc. The CMA media, aware of this, is obviously going to downplay the effectiveness of CMA in relation to effective fighting arts and play up the history, the Chi-side of things and those that are more than happy to drink the Kool-Aid willingly go along for the ride.

    That's the short and long of it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Darkfist View Post
    As far as confucian effects on martial arts, i was asking more about how you feel the doctrine of filial piety might have helped or hindered the growth of the arts (regarding the absolute obediance of the student to the master.
    It seems the MMA guys argue that the Chinese Ideologies would not allow for rapid evolution. I disagree strongly, I feel that Filial piety might have tempered and moderated foolhardy ideas that would have otherwise been rushed into in almost all aspects of life. I think that Confucuis firmly established that when you are the eldest it is your job to take the helm and to continue the growth of your family or in this case the combat art.
    Where is the rapid evolution that you are expecting to see? We still have people who argue over which styles training and forms are closest and unmodified from the original system. CMA tend to take pride in the fact that their traditional style is unchanged from the old ways. As long as CMA pride themselves on adhering to the old ways, there will never be an evolution, which is likely part of the reason why the evolution is so slow. MMA has changed more since 1995 than hung gar has in over 100 years.

    you are correct - the eldest SHOULD take the helm and continue growth of the combat art. However, when you have no requirement for combat, you end up with seniors who have never participated in combat. They are therefore teaching second hand someone else's combat experience. This only begets the brining up of more seniors with no direct combat experience. In the end, you have people acknowledged as masters, who have in fact never even had so much as a schoolyard fight. Over time, this will dilute the combat effectiveness of what you are teaching.
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    Ps

    Fu(k Confuscious ... I only say that half jonkingly too.

    Benevolence is for dogs!

    I'm a students so I'm supposed to behave this way...

    I am an eployee, so I'm supposed to behave this way...

    I am a husband, a neighbor, a citizen....

    Fu(k that!

    I am an individual comprised of multifaceted angles and relationships, and what I do (forget supposed to) depends on the situation.... which has never existed before in reality. Who's to say what's right or wrong.

    Confucious was trying to get a job and get people in line.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    Fu(k Confuscious ... I only say that half jonkingly too.

    Benevolence is for dogs!

    I'm a students so I'm supposed to behave this way...

    I am an eployee, so I'm supposed to behave this way...

    I am a husband, a neighbor, a citizen....

    Fu(k that!

    I am an individual comprised of multifaceted angles and relationships, and what I do (forget supposed to) depends on the situation.... which has never existed before in reality. Who's to say what's right or wrong.

    Confucious was trying to get a job and get people in line.

    Poor Confucius--everyone bashes on him nowadays without even understanding him. He didn't say you have to pigeonhole yourself to one role, just that you should play your roles well... If you have a son, you should be a good father to him. If you have a brother you should be a good brother to him. If you're a minister you should be honest and good to the people. If everyone fulfills their responsibilities in this way society will be peaceful. What's wrong with that?
    What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?

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  15. #15
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    "I'm a students so I'm supposed to behave this way..."

    -that's why I have my own school

    "I am an eployee, so I'm supposed to behave this way..."

    -that's why I'm self-employed

    "I am a husband, a neighbor, a citizen...."

    -that's why I'm single,a hermit,and a "known associate"

    "Fu(k that!"

    -works for me!

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