OT:Chinese Thinking and Philosphy and effect on MA

[Ray Pina]

If you have a son, you should be a good father to him. If you have a brother you should be a good brother to him. If you're a minister you should be honest and good to the people. If everyone fulfills their responsibilities in this way society will be peaceful. What's wrong with that?

Does a "good father" hit his kid when he acts up, disrecpects him... or does he never, ever, under any circumstances, no matter how bad the child is, hit his child?

A "good" teacher: Is he strict and demand students perform certain functions perfectly, exactly the same way he did, or does he allow them freedowm to learn and grow on their own under his guidance?

Can a minister be "honest" and "good" to the people and yet in his own private life fail to follow the tenants that he himself sets for others as a "good" minister.

Perhaps some don't understand poor Confucious. Maybe some read his stuff, read what others write about him and, not unlike listening to what their "good" parents, "good" teachers, "good" bosses, "good" politicians have said, just follow along and do what they're "supposed to do" because it's the "right" thing.

Some kids need a beating, many more don't. Some students need strict discipline, others will be turned off by it.

No man should tell another how he should live.... that's my thoughts on the ministry.... and Confucious.

[The Xia]

Confucian influence can be seen in TCMA in the form of filial piety and other things but those that practiced martial arts were often people considered unsavory by the Confucian aristocracy.

[Sifu Darkfist]

the shift to admiring the intellectual happened during the hundred schools of thought period. The rulers abandoned their worship of warrior skills and opted for the intelligentsia or literati. THe Martial artists became servants, however, Kang xi and several other Qing were known to train rigorously and held the deepest regard for their bodyguards (an area of personal interest to my heart due to my Lineage). So what exactly causes the lose of respect for those that protect your ability to breathe.

on an unrelated note,,,,,I am at the point that i ready to completely ignore all those that come to a Chinese Martial Arts forum just to bash the oldest Surviving country that is flourishing in the world. What is the motivation for such hatred?

Cma can be called whatever they like but i will say it is more likely to survive the long term than any other art simply due to its track record. it has been here the longest for some reason and it has the most detractors that is usually a sign that it is percevied as the most able adversary to the ones that wish to be recognized as legitimate.

[mantis108]

Wow, lots of good food for thoughts.

First off, thank you Sifu Darkfist for the kind words and support. I am gald you enjoy my posts.

Filial Piety in TCMA is often of practical and economic reasons. A lot of the masters were single and no one to take care of their retirements or funeral arrangements in the old days. It's up to the disciple(s) to take care of all that. In a society where there's no Church or State to turn to, people often have to fall back on their own net work of support - extended family.

I believe that it would be counterproductive to confuse skill development (ability to fight) with personal growth (morality and ethics) although they are directly related and should be directly porportional from a Chinese perspective IMHO. Personally, personal growth overrides skill development ( I am sure that other would disagree). The beauty of Kung Fu is that it actually harmonizes the two with a pragmatic approach. Many believe that Kung Fu is a close end system and it won't change. This is far from the truth IMHO. I believe Bruce Lee was on the mark when he built his system with the individual in mind. In fact, Kung Fu is about the individual not conformity. Style is only a templet where nothing is set in stone. The most important thing is to be honest to oneself (know thyself).

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

on an unrelated note,,,,,I am at the point that i ready to completely ignore all those that come to a Chinese Martial Arts forum just to bash the oldest Surviving country that is flourishing in the world. What is the motivation for such hatred?

Many of us don't hate cma. heck, a few of us used to train it. But you made a point which I addressed. Welcome to discussion. As for being the oldest survivng country, I'm pretty sure that would be anywhere in africa...

Cma can be called whatever they like but i will say it is more likely to survive the long term than any other art simply due to its track record. it has been here the longest for some reason and it has the most detractors that is usually a sign that it is percevied as the most able adversary to the ones that wish to be recognized as legitimate.

folk wrestling predates cma. every civilization since the beginning of recorded time has had it. And it is still around today. anything that anyone sees some need for stand the potential to stand the test of time.

[SevenStar]

Many believe that Kung Fu is a close end system and it won't change. This is far from the truth IMHO.

What changes have you seen over the years? are you happy with them? In your own teachings, do you typically embrace change?

Style is only a templet where nothing is set in stone. The most important thing is to be honest to oneself (know thyself).

Agreed.

[SPJ]

On Kong Fu Zi;

actually, his ideas work the best. The kings would not listen. At the time, the ministers or generals wanted to divide the kingdoms, such as 3 families of ministers divided Jin Guo. everyone was trumping for his interests. Shang Xia Jiao Xiang Li. everyone is to his own interests. there were never ending wars or wars upon wars among kingdoms and then among ministers within each kingdom.

in a society, we have different roles at different times. It is all relative. if we may reach a reciprocating point where every one would benefit the most. It is really simple.

for example. Fu Ci Zi Xiao. If you are a father, you are forgiving. If you are a son, you would respect and listen to your old man. guess what we are all sons or daughters at one point and then we will be parents, too.

Xiong You Di Gong. The big brother will be friendly. The little brother will be respectful to the elders. etc etc.

The ways to do things are called Dao or Do.

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so if you respect and listen to your teacher, your students would do the same to you. That is it.

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[SPJ]

evolution in MA is really a group effort overtime.

In the 1930's and early 40's, in the Kuo Shu Guan era, for example the Tong Bei people met with Pi Gua people and worked together. Pi Gua was greatly advanced with stepping methods from Tong Bei.

forces of evolution:

1. convergence, some repetitive/overlapping/similar functional moves may be simplified or unified by incorporating good ideas from several school/styles.

2. divergence. the root functional move/posture to derive/change into more moves.

3. central theme. focusing one theme and summarize all the available moves with the style or among several styles.

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etc etc.

[The Xia]

Kung Fu is about the individual not conformity.

Very true. You make the style your own and from a historical perspective this is also accurate. Individualism is a key trait of the xia.

[mantis108]

What changes have you seen over the years? are you happy with them? In your own teachings, do you typically embrace change?

I am sorry to said that TCMA in general are fast becoming the lost ark. Unfortunately, most if not all of the changes are about commercializing and westernizing (modernizing) TCMA. Very few people stop and ask themselves what their arts are really about. Systems and styles are gearing towards easy approaches and fast results. Cutting corners really doesn't make a system stronger.

I embrace changes. I believe my training methodology and program reflect that. I even have ex-students coming back to visit and admired how much we (the class) have evolved. Embracing change doesn't mean that one should chase after new paradigm and take the leap of faith. Rather it is about looking deeper into the system and adjust according. One must understand what his/her art is about. I don't think most TCMA people realize and understand the commonality that their arts have with all the rest of the arts (Chinese or otherwise) out there and how many lays of their arts really have to offer. Kung Fu is the original NHB but now in general it's the symbol of extreme FUBAR because most Kung Fu people become lethurgic and unimaginative. The most important thing is that one can not take Kung Fu out of its own context. It would be compare to taking a fish out of the water. You will only get a dead fish instead of a beautiful creature of the water. So...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Shaolinlueb]

ever hear the saying

1 kung fu master can beat 10 karate masters. but 10 kung fu masters cant beat 1 karate master? why? they are too busy argueing which technique to use.

[SPJ]

ever hear the saying

1 kung fu master can beat 10 karate masters. but 10 kung fu masters cant beat 1 karate master? why? they are too busy argueing which technique to use.

LOL. good one.

this is actually from Shaolin temple. "one monk has water to drink. two monks carry the bucket of the water from the river together. 3 monks. there are no water to drink!". why?



3 brains/ideas together is better than one. "three stinky leather pockets/people are better than minister Zhu Ge Liang".

in the old time, good ideas/notes are written and placed into a leather bag, you read them as needed as a reminder system.

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[SPJ]

in case you are wondering why 3 "common" ideas from 3 people will always be better than one idea from the minister wise man.

there are always more than one way to look at things and more than one solution to a problem at hand.

sometimes it is about what you don't know or don't think and not so much about what you already know or think.

if an apple hit my head, I eat the apple and collect more of them from the tree, b/c they are ripe for picking.

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why it felt downward---oh gravity by Mr. Newton.

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[Ray Pina]

Cma can be called whatever they like but i will say it is more likely to survive the long term than any other art

CMA, as a FUNCTIONAL MARTIAL art is already long gone. It's weapons can not compete with today's weaponry. It's hand to hand methods are extinct, no different than bones you see in the museum. They're there, you see them, you get the idea, but it is dead. As you'll never see a brontasorous walk this earth (only on TV) you never, ever, see a pure CMA comparing in full fighting with others.

I honestly believe I was one of the few who openly and publicly tried it. I never lost a no-rules challenge match but could not win against competitve fighters and am honest enough to admit that my losses were not due to rules. So I've evoloved what I've trained, and expanded my skills to now where I have to say I am not CMA. I'm not BJJ either. Nor am I "MMA" as viewed today though I am a mix.

it has been here the longest for some reason and it has the most detractors that is usually a sign that it is percevied as the most able adversary to the ones that wish to be recognized as legitimate.

TKD may have been publicly available longer in the US. and would certainly have more practioners than CMA. I wouldn't judge a fighting methods quality on that. Actually, the hard hitting, no bones about it banging attracts very few.

Even at Master Renzo Gracies, a gym with hundreds if not thousands of people training, only a handful go out to fight.

[Shaolinlueb]

It's hand to hand methods are extinct, no different than bones you see in the museum. They're there, you see them, you get the idea, but it is dead. As you'll never see a brontasorous walk this earth (only on TV) you never, ever, see a pure CMA comparing in full fighting with others.

wow dude, those are harsh words. i have to disagree.