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Thread: Feeman Ong's training Formulas saved.

  1. #1

    Feeman Ong's training Formulas saved.

    Hello all:

    I have noticed threads for a while discussing Master Ong. I was in his system some years ago and moved
    on to other things after joining the military. One of the things I did was study Chinese herbs. I moved back to the Akron area and found that Master Ong had passed on.When I was asking around I made mention of my
    herbal training, several people started giving me their stashes of herbs to look at. I was actually able to identify all the medicines. Some things took me several years. It was kind of a hobby study when I had nothing going on. I cataloged all of the ingredients of all the formulas given too me. The Big hand hot and cold, small hand, bruise herb, there where two types of this. One was a deep bruise, big body liniment, big body pill, small body pill, cut herb, internal injury pill and the endurance herb. Some of the ingredients like bear paw are not really available anymore, My friends in Chinatown just kind of laugh when I ask.

    I have seen hundreds of formulas, these are good, a twist on some other traditional shaolin formulas. But I have seen better formulas also.
    I enjoyed working on them. I will not publish these formulas. I know that these particular formulas can no longer be obtained. As a friendly gesture I thought I would make a post and mention to students of Master Ongs martial art that I am making these training formulas available to them. I keep hundreds of lbs. of herbs at my kung fu studio in Akron and fill orders for iron palm medicine and dit da jow for people on a regular basis.
    Some of the people that read this will say "impossible" some of the herbs where ground up
    Well, I'm good! it's hard to hide stuff from me.
    I will also mention whoever the person was who did prepared the herbs was a craftsman.
    you can e-mail me at MantisBxr@aol.com

    Thanks

    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong branch
    Choy li fut, Hung sing branch
    Yang tai chi

  2. #2
    Mike,
    Nice to see you post here!

    Friends,
    I have known Mike for twenty years and he is the most knowledgeable Chinese herbalist that I know. My students and I use his dit da jow for Iron Palm training. His rates are really reasonable too.

    Richard A. Tolson
    http://www.angrymonkeyfist.com

  3. #3
    Hello,
    Thanks for the interesting post.
    Would this Iron Palm medicine be the same as that used by the Green Dragon teachers (Gene Chicoine and John Allen)? I believe that they were students of Master Ong at one point.

  4. #4

    Master Ong's Training formulas saved

    kal:
    In a way yes and in a way no. After the break up of Allen and Chicoine from master Ong they where cut off from the supplier of this type of medicine. They had a supply the could use for a few months. This was in the mid to late 70's. Chicoine did some traveling and found an herbalist named Peter Chan from Chan Ning Tong in San Francisco. Mr Chicoine tried to have master Ong's formulas duplicated but it didn't happen. Peter Chan had his own formulas that Chicoine and Allen used until the early 90's when Mr Chan retired and closed his shop. Peter Chan was a dear friend of mine and passed these formulas too me. they are very good also. Since then the formulas that have come my way from these groups of course have been taken apart weighed and cataloged. The formulas that they use today are different from say 1994. They are good but they also seem to be trying to imitate the old formulas of Master Ong's. They dont quite have it.
    So Green dragons and Allen's formulas are different, but I think they still love the old formulas, as do I.

    Thanks
    Mike Biggie

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    ALASKA
    Posts
    22

    Very well Said .

    Mike ! your the Man ......

    Good to see you on . I'm Happy you have made the time to come on the FORUM, and Set the record straight . I support you and your school ..... I hope to see on more often . Mukei

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    kal:
    In a way yes and in a way no. After the break up of Allen and Chicoine from master Ong they where cut off from the supplier of this type of medicine. They had a supply the could use for a few months. This was in the mid to late 70's. Chicoine did some traveling and found an herbalist named Peter Chan from Chan Ning Tong in San Francisco. Mr Chicoine tried to have master Ong's formulas duplicated but it didn't happen. Peter Chan had his own formulas that Chicoine and Allen used until the early 90's when Mr Chan retired and closed his shop. Peter Chan was a dear friend of mine and passed these formulas too me. they are very good also. Since then the formulas that have come my way from these groups of course have been taken apart weighed and cataloged. The formulas that they use today are different from say 1994. They are good but they also seem to be trying to imitate the old formulas of Master Ong's. They dont quite have it.
    So Green dragons and Allen's formulas are different, but I think they still love the old formulas, as do I.

    Thanks
    Mike Biggie
    Many thanks for the quick reply.

    I remember an old iron palm video from Green Dragon back in the 1980s. Mr Choicoine emphasised several times that the formula needed to follow their iron plam training was highly secret. He mentioned 2 or 3 times about the lengths he was taking to keep it secret, including sourcing it from three separate suppliers (so that no single supplier could find it out) as well as grinding th herbs to powder to disguise them. Given the timescale you mentioned, would this mean that they were referring to Peter Chan's formula? I vaguely remember hearing that their formula either came from or was modified by a Master Chang. Would this be Chang Dung Sheng of Shuai Chiao?

  7. #7
    kal:

    Video tape from the 80's would be Peter Chans formula, If I remember correctly the closing date of Chan Ning Tong was maybe 94-95. I have no Idea who the new supplier is, but I have looked at Chicoine's new medicine a dozen times its a large formula similar to Master Ong's but overdone, far more herbs in it than are needed. Actually like two formulas combined. Its Ok. I have seen different grades of quality in certain herbs
    among the dozen or so batches. The idea of having different suppliers fill the formula to keep it secret. I can't really see that as accurate. The formulas are not that big a deal, most Chinese pharmacists don't care what
    your dit da jow formula is. They are generally busy treating people with health problems of some sort and that is their main priority. The statement about splitting the formula up, is more for public consumption.The"ooh, ahh", factor. People eat that up. Nothing too far out in the formulas. Everything in their formulas I keep several lbs of. However Peter Chans is very different and I consider it a true iron Palm formula. Very good if not one of the best.

    As far as Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng. I don't believe he any interest Iron palm. If the formula was Grandmaster Changs , there would not have been a change in the 90's it would still be the same formula as prior to 94-95. not a different formula when a new supplier was found The two formulas are completely different.
    As far as the Green dragon group, they where getting the same formula and the change up time was the same. Frankly I have lost interest in looking at their formulas. Just remember the people that run the world could not keep the secrets of the atomic bomb from leaking out. Do you really think the recipe for a liniment will be kept under more secrecy.

    I guess the reason for mentioning this on a forum like this is the thought, as all of these people become older and depart. Let everyone know there are people who have taken the time to keep track of things. I have refused to let things get lost.


    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang tai Chi
    Last edited by Piercinghammer; 12-16-2006 at 06:55 PM.

  8. #8
    Mike,

    Thanks for the additional info, and also for bringing a bit of down-to-earthness to this whole issue. Yes, in retrospect, the whole "ultimate secret formula" thing was probably a bit of marketing to give an "ooh ah" factor!
    Also, if Green Dragon has been continually changing formulas (it sounds like they are on at least their third iteration from what you describe) then it is a bit strange for them to refer to their medicine as though it were the one and only True Formula.

    You're right about the large number of herbs in Mr. Chicoine's medicine. One of the things I vividly remember is him stating that you need at least 20 herbs and used to emphasise the large number that Green Dragon used.

    Something else I would like to ask you if you don't mind: Mr Chicoine used to write how an iron palm medicine needs to be dark brown, opaque, and very strong-smelling. Is this necessarily always the case? I have seen medicines in the past that were quite light in colour and were rather transparent too.

    Thanks for coming on here and sharing some of your knowledge. I for one am grateful that some people refuse to let things die out or get lost.

  9. #9

    Feeman Ong's formulas

    Kal:

    The Idea of an iron Palm medicine needing to be dark and pungent isn't an absolute but it is a good general rule of thumb that I like to use. There are some reasons for the pungent part that most people are not aware of. The mind controls the chi. Iron palm training is such a slow repetitive process (or at least is should be)
    over a period of time the odor of the herbs will trigger many of the things that are associated with its particular chigong without doing the chigong exercises. when I catch the odor of the formula I can feel all sorts of processes start happening that I have become familiar with while doing the Chigong for iron palm. In this regard some formulas are better than others. Dark in color is just due to a couple of tonic herbs.


    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang tai chi
    Last edited by Piercinghammer; 01-10-2007 at 09:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    columbus, ohio
    Posts
    44

    herbal formulas

    Very nice post Mike,

    Keep spreadin' the word!...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    kal:
    In a way yes and in a way no. After the break up of Allen and Chicoine from master Ong they where cut off from the supplier of this type of medicine. They had a supply the could use for a few months. This was in the mid to late 70's. Chicoine did some traveling and found an herbalist named Peter Chan from Chan Ning Tong in San Francisco. Mr Chicoine tried to have master Ong's formulas duplicated but it didn't happen. Peter Chan had his own formulas that Chicoine and Allen used until the early 90's when Mr Chan retired and closed his shop. Peter Chan was a dear friend of mine and passed these formulas too me. they are very good also. Since then the formulas that have come my way from these groups of course have been taken apart weighed and cataloged. The formulas that they use today are different from say 1994. They are good but they also seem to be trying to imitate the old formulas of Master Ong's. They dont quite have it.
    So Green dragons and Allen's formulas are different, but I think they still love the old formulas, as do I.

    Thanks
    Mike Biggie
    Mike,
    There is a seller on eBay called Shen Martial Arts (http://stores.ebay.com/SHEN-MARTIAL-ARTS) who sells a "Chan Ning Kong" dit da jow. Is this the same formula that you are referring to above? (Peter Chan formula?) And can you recommend Shen Martial Arts as a genuine producer of these medicines?

  12. #12

    Dit da jow

    Kal:

    Shen purchased a couple of bags of dit da jow and Iron palm medicine from me a while back with permission to re-sell. So yes I can recommend Shen as a producer, because I made them.

    Thanks

    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang Tai Chi

  13. #13
    So Green dragons/Allen's formulas are different
    Correct.


    As far as Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng. I don't believe he any interest Iron palm
    Incorrect.

  14. #14
    Iron Tiger:

    Please fill me in on what your take on this subject is. I mentioned that I did not believe that Grand Master
    Chang had "much interest" in iron palm, let me go further. Being that it is considered a low level skill and that his body and forearms were already conditioned far beyond that of the average practitioner. His skill with his Hsing i, Taichi and Shuai chaio,where exceptional. He himself... beyond this type of training.

    would love to hear what you have to say


    Mike Biggie

  15. #15
    piercinghammer:

    I mentioned that I did not believe that Grand Master
    Chang had "much interest" in iron palm
    Roger, hammer, I copied that. Although I did quote your exact words.

    Iron palm (all 4 levels; though some teach 2 etc), correctly taught, practiced (this includes using a properly formulated medicine, which is *THE* key to success in IP), and applied, is not a low level skill at all.

    Huge topic, though. But there's a reason many masters of old considered open-handed techniques to be among the most advanced skills a fighter could have at his or her disposal.

    Many would disagree also with the implication of the way you seem to be defining the word "conditioning" (of Chang's body & forearms, for instance) in the context of the Old Ways of "Classical" Chinese MA training.

    Also worth noting that the protection provided by Iron Vest can't be penetrated with beginner's palm; you have to have advanced level to do that---IF you had correct training on the authentic Vest (very internal, generally requiring herbal assist, ie, the little "dynamite pills" taken for the first 100 days, primarily cleansing of a specialized variety...ie you ain't gonna find these on any health food store shelf, even one in Chinatown) in the first place.

    Chang was highly skilled in IP (and Ong was no slouch) and used it to win many of his challenge matches (yes, I know some websites state to the contrary--that he trained his elbows instead of his palms, for example--but according to everything I know that is not accurate) quickly. He passed this training (at least some of the most crucial aspects; maybe more, can't say with authority) on to Chicoine, as well as his own formula. Chicoine uses Chang's herbs, not Ong's; but I ain't going to get into that here.

    Not going to comment on what Green Dragon's formula has in common with Chang's except that I would bet Allen has a few sources for ingredients of his own; and that I'd be highly skeptical of P. Chan's being the real thing. That's just an educated guess, though. But anyone who's seen their tape on Palm knows that Allen adds in some preparatory exercises that Chicoine doesn't cover (at least on the tape).

    I also doubt either Chang, Allen, or Chicoine are using formulae which include superfluous ingredients. Likely, they just know more about what Iron Palm is supposed to do than the, if I may, "average" (maybe mainstream is a better word) kung fu student or instructor does. A *lot* more!

    Among several other things, correct medicine will actually draw the chi out into the palms for use in fighting as well as for general health purposes. It also hardens the bones of the hands to an extremely unusual degree; they become very hard to injure.

    Anyone who hasn't done some serious work on the Teet Sao set---Green Dragon does sell it, but I don't think it matters where you get it as long as you can; GD teaches it properly, though, whereas some others may not (ie this is NOT an ad for GD tapes but an advocacy for authentic Chinese MA training)---would be well advised to give it a whirl. It's a very beginning level iron palm training set. If you do it daily (after you learn it thoroughly) it will also draw the chi to the palms after enough reps over enough time (varies with the student, the state of his/her chi at the time of starting, eg) but without medicine etc; thereby giving one an idea of what true Palm training can do...and why it isn't a "low level" skill or form of training at all!

    Huge, huge topic, piercinghammer...Tying in with what I said in my last post in the GD Studios thread about most students (and instructors) not really knowing what people like Chang were really capable of.

    You can have really good success in Vest or Stone Warrior etc, though, without the use of herbs; whereas they are absolutely crucial to getting the results in Palm that a CMA student was historically supposed to expect---and get.
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-13-2007 at 02:58 PM.

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