Feeman Ong's training Formulas saved.

[kal]

Among several other things, correct medicine will actually draw the chi out into the palms for use in fighting as well as for general health purposes. It also hardens the bones of the hands to an extremely unusual degree; they become very hard to injure.
.

This pulling the chi to the palms is something I have read Chicoine and Allen saying many times. Is this the most important part of a genuine iron palm medicine? Is this what differentiates it from the general purpose dit da jow medicines out there?

[iron tiger]

Genuine Iron Palm medicine is pretty much totally unlike any kind of Jow.

[Wolfgang Kruger]

Greetings Iron Tiger:
Just Curious if you have Trained with Master Chicoine Or Allen Personally?
Your Post Quotes Allen Word for word right out of his Training Tapes. Things like "Dynamite little Pills" for example.
Seems like you have watched Green Dragon material quite a bit!

Mike has trained with Chicoine and I can assure you when it Comes to Chinese Training Formulas, he is Quite Gifted and really knows his stuff. I've Known Mike for many years.I have trained Iron Palm and obtained Master Chicoines Iron Palm Medicine directly from him. I have broken down the Formula, and so has Mike.

Is it the End all Iron Palm Formula? Is it the Only Iron Palm Medicine to Pull Chi to the Palm? Thats Simple the Answer is no.

Greetings from Ohio!
-Wolfgang

[iron tiger]

Just Curious if you have Trained with Master Chicoine Or Allen Personally

I was a Green Dragon student. Continued my study after another party turned me on to the fact that they had started a tapes division.

I've run into a few other ex-Allen/Chicoine/Ong etc students over the years, too.

Incidentally, are you the same 'Wolfgang' who had trained at Green Dragon in the early 80s or so, then left to join the military? Just curious...

Mike has trained with Chicoine and I can assure you when it Comes to Chinese Training Formulas, he is Quite Gifted and really knows his stuff

Well, since I have your personal "assurance"...

I'm not questioning piercinghammer's skills at all. But he asked for my take, and I know there's a lot of misinformation---some of it deliberate---out there so I responded to the best of my knowledge & recollection & experience (guess that was another mistake, oh well).

But how long did Mike stay with Chicoine? That, of course, can make a big difference in how much hard info he was actually, ultimately privvy to, no? I mean, it sure seems like he was much more of an Ong student than one of Chicoine's.

I've known quite a few guys over the years who've claimed to've "trained with" Allen or Chicoine, fwiw, so there is some small basis for comparison & pov.

I have broken down the Formula, and so has Mike

Well, if you're absolutely certain that the formula you've analyzed is Chang's, okay. But if it's the same as Ong's stuff, then I'd be very skeptical.

I know a lot of people who say their medicine draws chi to the palms ETC...but they can't duplicate what Chicoine can do. Even when they can do most of what Ong could do.

I also know a lot of guys who say they've "done" arm grabs and Stone Warrior, etc, too; then I've watched them work out and about 75% of it they're just dogging it, ie they are NOT applying full tension from beginning to end, or holding a low enough stance, or doing the exercises the same way, either; and so on.

Your Post Quotes Allen Word for word right out of his Training Tapes. Things like "Dynamite little Pills" for example...Seems like you have watched Green Dragon material quite a bit

As covered in several other posts in the Green Dragon thread. Why would I use a term other than what my Sifu used? Should I've said "nitro herbs" or "megaplex caps"?

In my experience (& a few others') it's much more prudent to use Allen's own words and descriptions wherever possible, rather than be accused of twisting them and such.

Especially when I have guys who keep citing certain tapes in their/his posts to support something said, then in later posts this person raises questions, almost somewhat mockingly, at times (fwiw, he's also posted on the same subject on other boards), that were already answered in the tape he'd previously cited.

I've sat down and watched a sampling of their tapes with other guys in the past, including those Q&A tapes, and been astonished at how fast they are in turning his data inside out, or having the gist of it go completely past 'em.

Just part of where I'm coming from with that.

I have broken down the Formula, and so has Mike

And no one else has?

In fact, the manner the first post was made should raise several questions...for anyone who's actually had experience with the various formulas.

For example, he's making these herbs available with whose blessing (or assurance)? Or don't they care (because I sure don't. Fun to read, though)?

A fair couple of questions--no?

Some of the ingredients like bear paw are not really available anymore

Let alone getting the reptile hormone levels (& etc) or age of the bear paw correct based on those powders alone...

Greetings from Ohio!

Bummer about those Buckeyes last Monday night!

Good luck in your work and training.

[Mukei]

To Whom it may Concern. I Think I can correct the miss-understanding of some of the miss- interpreted topics. First off . I know for a fact. Grand Master Chang Was Not a Iron Palm practitioner . He Conditioned his Elbows . As His Training and conditioning was Very good . He did not need any Iron palm training . When he hit you, You knew it . He was Considered a National treasure for China . Your Right, He was Highly
Skilled.

# 2 Those So called little "dynamite pills" your relating to , I believe Were A Joke. They aided to allot of Kidney stones ( a major side effect from them) If anything they were a good Placebo. The Iron Vest is a good Exercise though .

# 3 60% of his Knowledge ( Grand Master Chang) was lost when he died . A lot is misplaced. Where did it Go?

#4 Iron Palm is Done By your most favorable Hand (90% Right Hand). That’s what is taught in both Schools ( Green Dragon & Ho Chun ) . The Formulas used are very good. Again Grand Master Chang Did not Alter them. He had no Formula . He did not need it . His Tai Chi, Shuai Jiao, and other Styles that he was known for was Superb. Mr. Chicoin can hit . I Have never Ever Seen GD do Anything like What Ho Chun would Do in the demo’s All Senior Students Broke Concrete By Far More then Green Dragon and Showed their Iron palm Power. All they Were Known For (Green Dragon) were their forms and weapons. Which allot of People Are not impressed with. As well as fine Quality of their Copy of a Copy VHS Tapes. The Quality is very bad. I was Watching Mr. Allen go threw Tai Chi and it Was Horrible. It was Very Bad. Enough said .


I Don’t know Who - Iron Tiger is but , those are the Facts . I was part of the Old school and I Was at Ho Chun at the Time When GM Chang Came to Mogador, Ohio. With the Police Escort and the whole nine yards. I was at the Seminars . I Remember GM Changs Visit, As well as the Material . I Met Mr. Allen and his Students, Including the women- roids, that were the big body builders. ( not impressed) . I remember allot of what was said. Its hard to believe it has been that long ago. However, I’m not impressed with the made up fairytales.
If you Wish to have more Facts of the Truth Let me know. I will be more then willing to Set the record Straight. Their has been many Miss - leading material made about GM Chang and its really sad.

Mukei

[iron tiger]

60% of all kung fu knowledge--some say as much as 70%--may have been lost with GM Chang's death, but indisputable is the fact that about 95% of the info in the above post is total bull.

Among many other points, Chang most certainly was trained in Iron Palm and he did have his own medicine.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Many of us here are familiar with Ong's dit da jow. Mike has worked hard to recreate the formula. Is it 100% the same? I do not know. However, I can attest to a few things:
1. Many of the ingredients are the same as those in Richard Pitt's jow which came from Gene Chicoine in his Hop Sing days. This I know from experience.
2. Those across the country who use Mike's jow swear by it.
3. Shen Martial Arts felt Mike's version was authentic enough to market it.
4. Some of the ingredients are very similar to Ark Y Wong's jow and Ku Yu Cheong's jow.
5. Mike is very anal (I mean that in a positive way). He is very precise in his Choy Li Fut and Seven Star Praying Mantis. I cannot believe he is any less precise in his study of herbalism.
6. Mike told me he had "cracked" the formula by taking Ong's formula apart piece by piece. He identified various components by sight, smell and/or taste. He also consulted with at least a couple of herbalists before he reproduced the formula.
Nuff' said.

[Akronviper]

I never have heard that Chang did Iron Palm, I have heard of the elbows, but not from any one important. Chicoine had ecellent palm skills prior to meeting Chang. He may have given some insight or tips but that was it. Chang was very much into herbs and TCM so it would not be hard to belive he may have added a few herbs, but to be his formula is wrong.

Biggies reputation should be enough to make him a very credible person in this field. Chicoine states that Chang added a few herbs to the formula, who am I to say he did not. I do know that it works and is good jow and he must be doing something right because he has amazing palm skills.

[Piercinghammer]

Iron Tiger:
Your posts raise the some interesting questions, But I'm sorry to say that having been around CMA for 35 years they tend to be the same nothing questions from that tend to be more protest than question. I' have heard it
all before. In this area of the country it is always by someone who has no idea what their talking about.
Somebody embellishing statements to try to hide what they "don't know". That does not fly with me.
I'm not trying to be insulting, but if you knew how many times I have had someone from one of the
local schools try to tell me what was what. Then to only be shown to know nothing of what they speak.
It gets old after a while.
Prime example... I had an instructor (kept nameless) from the old style, tell me that I would be able to duplicate all the formulas, but they would never be the same. I asked why? His reply was because
"the monks" made sure that a special venomous snake breathed on the herbs, and that was their secret.

What "F"ing color is the sky in your world? We have a received something of an education at one time or another as citizens here in the West. To even make a statement like that... I just had to smile. it was too much.
So You see, too me you are just an anonymous poster on an Internet forum, that in your statements
resemble many of the folks I have described, not to the same degree but I know that shuffle.

I'm not going to school you on an Internet forum on the basic study of Chinese herbs,their genus, preparation and alike. You can do your own homework.

I grew up around Chicoine, my father and he where friends, he was around my home, stopping by while on duty as a police officer, hell he even broke his hand in my garage showing off breaking bricks. I attended his
studio thru the 70's on and off until I could drive myself. He is where I found my love for CMA. I know his stories and embellishments also. Do I like him.. "Nope" do I have anything against him, not really.
Do I sell his Iron palm formula. Its his not mine! I've looked at it, its OK. I have it written down,but its not for sale to people. As a matter of fact I don't even care for it. Peter Chan's sure, anyone who wants it, they where gifts to me. Feemans, If his students would like his hand medicine or bruise herbs, sure thing. I worked long and hard on saving Feeman's formulas. His students didn't do a **** thing to keep them from getting lost. i.e. Al Wasil and Bob Kruger.
So I consider them mine now, and rest assured, I know them inside out. every fen, chien and liang.

I know the time lines on these formulas,and I knew where they where being filled. You can tell me Chang this and Chang that, and I'll tell you your just full of S**t. It's fine marketing on your part though. That's not to say that Chang Tung Sheng did not have formulas,or give formulas out...hell I have some. Or that he had the pharmacist tweak some iron palm formula for Allen or Chicoine, Perfectly believable.

My main reason for doing any of this is because, "lets face it" these guys all heading to Geezerville.
Ong died and didn't leave anything to anyone, what do you think the chances that the rest of the self absorbed old f@rts are to do anything different. I may be the only person ever to receive any formulas from
Gene in written Chinese, his students may have to go into his files after he dies. Not that they will have any idea what they are looking at or what to do with them.

I am forward and to the point, you ask a question or for an opinion, you will get it, and it will not be the
half a$$ stammering type of thing that you may be accustomed to from this area. I refuse to kiss A$$ of anybody here or elsewhere, which seems to be thing to do in CMA circles in the Akron area, and that's just
being honest. I've been a round too long and it galls me to have somebody put their HOODOO spin on everything. and everyone in the local area with 6 month of training seems to do that.

So here at the end of the day, we are all still Gentlemen, and we all return to our passion, train hard
and do our best at whatever we have chosen and look to see furthur than what weve been allowed to see.

And yes maybe next year the Buckeyes might not try so hard at disappointing everyone at the very end.

BTW: befeore I forget, I will mention that all of the students from the Green Dragon that I have come into contact with over the years have always been some of the most polite people I have met. Thats not Kissing A$$. thats just the truth.
some other folks in the area could ... take a little lesson in that behavior.

Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang tai chi

[Mukei]

60% of all kung fu knowledge--some say as much as 70%--may have been lost with GM Chang's death, but indisputable is the fact that about 95% of the info in the above post is total bull.

Among many other points, Chang most certainly was trained in Iron Palm and he did have his own medicine.

Well ... You might think so hahahah... But Like I said .. I was their . I was their when the subject came up About his Training . If He Did, That means They would of been useing it and Discussing it and of Course Everybody Would of been useing it . From Day one... and It Would of been In all the Magazines and Everything else. But Like I said . He Did Not !!!!! But Everyone Continued With Big Hand . With out the Bear Paw. hahahahahaha... Who are you Brother ? If you know so much ..... Come out of the closet.

You Know Hank, Ben, Loui, Jim. Back in the Hop - Sing DAYS.... Do I need to Dig more?
Chang Was the one Who Named Ho Chun. Haveing Demo's At Stow High school ....

You Keep on Thinking how you want ... But I Know Facts My Freind . Enough said
Mukei

[JDK]

I came on the Ong, Chicoine, Allen, Chang Martial Arts dispute in 1980
I trained in Master Ong's Basement prior to his death...and then studied with his son Stephen ater that.

I visited Allen's Green Dragon Studio and was impressed with their weapons and forms ( learned from Master Ong & Master Chicoine)
I also visited Chicoine's Ho Chun Studio and observed 2 classes. Very good training and no Sport attitude at all. Training was serious , intense and advanced to what he learned with Feemon. He also had added Weights ( something Master Ong never endorsed) and Master Chang had certainly added to Chicone's alread yconsiderable vast knowledge ans Skill.

I also trained briefly with Tony Yang in Canton and Dave Shenk in Tallmadge. I observed one class of Mike Biggie ( and was impressed) and also Moneyking when he was in Green.

I made several friends at the Ongs, so I have good memories of my training there with Bob Keen and Stephen. I learned alot of good basics and foundation.

**** Pitts Art of Desire School was close to where I grew up, s I also observed a class of his and got a copy of his White Tiger Booklet ?...( not sure of the exact title)

I have been to several tournaments and watched some of these men and their students perform and compete.( Not many...Chicoine, Allen, Ong for sure wouldnt allow anything tournament wise back then)

It was my experience that Master Ong, Mike Biggie , Monkey King, and Sifu Shenk were all gentlemen and seemed polite and had small Ego's

Just my 2 cents

JD

[IronWeasel]

I have heard about the snake's breath before...

From Chicoine's reputation, though, his formula seems to work just fine.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

JDK wrote,
It was my experience that Master Ong, Mike Biggie , Monkey King, and Sifu Shenk were all gentlemen and seemed polite and had small Ego's


Thanks for the props!
Richard A. Tolson

[iron tiger]

I was asked for my take, and gave it. I still stand by it. If you don't think you're gonna like the answer, or get the answer you wanted, then why ask the question?

Chang was trained in iron palm and used it to win many fights. From my experience and to my knowledge, to claim he wasn't or didn't just shows that some of the people who claim to have "inside knowledge" about it just really don't.

I'm sure Mike believes what he says. But he provided nothing that he bases his belief on---nor did anyone else---that would change my mind. Not being disrepectful, it's just calling it how it looks from my pov. It's not new news to some of us out here that the old ways & knowledge are slowly disappearing; nor are the many, often more complicated than they may appear, reasons why.

Just too bad, imho, that so few schools even have a real interest in preserving as much of that old knowledge---and skill---as is still possible as more & more of those old masters pass from the face of the Earth.

I have heard about the snake's breath before

And 1,000 (sometimes 10,000) year old eggs, and so on.

One thing about (authentic) iron palm medicine, though, from a general perspective (ie not saying Mike doesn't already know this; but I read nothing to indicate he, or any of the other posters, do/does): it's interesting to me that in addition to dilating the meridians, they also do unusual things to blood flow.

I say this because I was always struck by the uncanny ways that the Snake Turns Over (and other isotonically-grounded strength & power exercises) affects bloodflow routes, through hard exercise (the flexing, turnings, etc) alone just prior to some of the internal effects coming into play--eg chi; and in some of the more advanced sets, how particular movements---changes in finger postion, wrist rotations, etc---close down some "chi circuits" while opening others for activation throughout the course of the exercise sequence or structure of the form, esp. when the breathing has to be timed to the movements.

But what's most interesting of all, of course, is what happens when you're doing something that's also supposed to build extra power but is completely "internal" in its design (iron vest or some of the Iron Buddha or Hsing I exercises, eg); and then what happens again when you experiment with using various of the many herbal formulas that are out there (and I'm familiar with a couple or so) to test their effectiveness.

Not intended for the many experts who've already chimed in and know all about these phenomena, but for any stray student of a "beginner's mind" who might have more than a passing interest of some of these topics (ie herbs, medicines [many of which include more than just herbs, eg bear parts (of a specific species? No?) or tiger or minerals etc] and the more esoteric, in some views, "internal" side of the TCMA as it has been practiced at various times in history.

I trained in Master Ong's Basement prior to his death...and then studied with his son Stephen ater that.

I visited Allen's Green Dragon Studio and was impressed with their weapons and forms ( learned from Master Ong & Master Chicoine)
I also visited Chicoine's Ho Chun Studio and observed 2 classes.

I also trained briefly with Tony Yang in Canton and Dave Shenk in Tallmadge. I observed one class of Mike Biggie ( and was impressed) and also Moneyking when he was in Green.

I made several friends at the Ongs, so I have good memories of my training there with Bob Keen and Stephen. I learned alot of good basics and foundation.

All well and good---for you. I did my own "shopping around," though. And checked and double-checked before I decided to go with Green Dragon (instead of one of the many other pretty good MA schools that are out there). I've never yet regretted my own choice, either.

Again, just my take. Best of luck in your own work & training, whoever you are wherever and whichever choices you may have committed to.

In closing----dang, too bad about Ginn & Pittman joining Gonzo in the draft. Sure do miss the old ways of college football, when Woody & Bear were around and players hung in there for all 4 years, etc...

[JDK]

In closing----dang, too bad about Ginn & Pittman joining Gonzo in the draft. Sure do miss the old ways of college football, when Woody & Bear were around and players hung in there for all 4 years, etc...

ME TOO!


BM