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Thread: Feeman Ong's training Formulas saved.

  1. #31

    Jow:Real or is it time

    As a person who knows little about the lifestyle of iron palm but some about herbs, I'd like to say that Chinese medicine sure has changed over the years. Change is due to time, location,interpretation of formula colligraphy, experience, and relationships.

    Time is a basic premise in Chinese medicne along with the changes of Yin and Yang. There was a time when certain herbs were easily accessed but then the FDA has stepped in. Animal parts are harder to obtain as are certain herbs like catechu, mahuuang, and other aristolochia. Besides that, the closest some herbalists will get to a tiger or rhino is when it dies in the zoo.So much for rare ingredients. Time was that wasn't the case. Also some herbs need to harvested in a timely manner, and are in smalll supply, thinking about liquid amber sap. Strchnine is an ingredient in some jow and I'm sure your local Chinese herbalist will raise their eyebrows when seeing it listed, possibly not even adding it to the formula.

    Having a varied ecosystem, a Chinese iron palm master/ plan old practitioner could move from Sichuan to Harbin and not be able to access the special herbs of his old location. You use what is available ; I'm not saying use junk, just that some herbs are easily found in particular locations.

    Yang jwing ming has some formula ingredients that are translated as three taoist herbs, what are those, the three yellows? and there's also the shell of a crayfish from some river in China. Few Americans will know where that river is, let alone get crayfish from there. Unless you have a special guy harvesting for you, as if...

    With experience a jow maker may decide the cinnamon bark from Vietnam is really better then the cinnamon bark from Guangcho. I my the formula changes. Here comes broken hands.....no I don't believe so. Amounts may vary because the freshest herbs picked in China or Siberia or Hebei dry out, may be sulfered/fulmulgated by the time they get to a USA China town. Thus the li, fen qian,liang( a big batch for sure) may vary.

    Chinese medicine definately has shamanism, so snake breath, chants, monks, may be part of the formula. Think of hupo, amber, tiger spirit.The likelyhoood of an American/non-Chinese to access the Shamaonism aspect is pretty small. A lot of learning, kung fu, medicine, is based on relationships. I doubt Allen, Ong, Chicoine, had access to such esoteric stuff. Even if they were the second son of whoever. Some precious things occur over time and if you live in Ohio and the master teacher is in China- well even if you speak Chinese have a Chinese wife, and can hold a horse stance for 15 minutes, 30 minutes- few are let in. But then again maybe they did really know such people.

    I don't know if it matters. lineage is important but what matters is what you can do. When the time comes, time tells. Are you doing the Sifu's suggestions and training daily.The "wow" part of the Ong, Allen Chicoine claims probably played a major part of their Ohio stories. Stories that wouldn't be told or would be accepted as a norm in an area of a large Chinese population, such as California, New York, Vancouver, BC. But if they're true that's very cool but what can I do is the point of my training

    Mike B. I really appreciate the visit to my place, the visit to your school, what you showed and gave me , along with teaching me the two exercises. Mike seems to have known a lot back in '96 and since he's been wood shedding on his own and learning from others, he clearly must be better then he was.

    Meaning what he makes is authentic jow, good medicine.

    Steve H AKA Monkey boy by Big Bob

  2. #32
    Iron Tiger I dont say this much but what is Allen feeding you. If you want to know about Chang dont listen to Allen for he did not train under him, met yes trained under no.

  3. #33
    what is Allen feeding you. If you want to know about Chang dont listen to Allen
    Viper, it wasn't Allen who told me. Nor was it only one other person.*



    Also, with all due respect, Allen never told me anything that didn't turn out to be valid, whether in a fact-type way or, in a this-will-happen-if-you-do-it-this-way type of way if it was about training.

    All the best to you; and those Buckeyes.

    (* although Allen later also said so, too.)

  4. #34
    Any one have any insight about Ong's endurance pills or wine of life. Are they usefull, still around or even worth while.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilgrimsunwukun View Post

    ...Chinese medicine definately has shamanism, so snake breath, chants, monks, may be part of the formula. Think of hupo, amber, tiger spirit.The likelyhoood of an American/non-Chinese to access the Shamaonism aspect is pretty small. A lot of learning, kung fu, medicine, is based on relationships. I doubt Allen, Ong, Chicoine, had access to such esoteric stuff. Even if they were the second son of whoever. Some precious things occur over time and if you live in Ohio and the master teacher is in China- well even if you speak Chinese have a Chinese wife, and can hold a horse stance for 15 minutes, 30 minutes- few are let in. But then again maybe they did really know such people.

    I don't know if it matters. lineage is important but what matters is what you can do


    Shamanism most definitely played a part in Ong's obtaining his ingredients, some knowledge and even our Uniforms came from sources in Taiwan and China.
    Again...........this is why I left Kwan Ying Do.

    His famous Opening Up Of A Black Belt's "Chi Gates" after 10 years of study
    was considered quite an honor and There was a Ceremony involved.

    Many of the tokens taught us were in honor of a dead departed "master".


    It is impossible to seperate Chinese Martial Arts and their veiw on the Universe,Buddhism, the after life...and disguised worship of various Chinese dieties.



    I hate posting this because I have such a love for the Chinese Arts!!!!!!!!
    But.............

    They are not worth endangering one's eternal Soul.

    Sorry if I offended anyone...but please remember myNEW signature line..

    http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/newage5-99.html

    http://www.cephasministry.com/index_new_age.html

    http://kempojitsu.homestead.com/Simms.html


    Humbly ...JDK
    Last edited by JDK; 01-31-2007 at 06:57 AM.
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
    [

  6. #36
    Well ... You might think so hahahah...
    I know so. 80% (of the post's content) is irrelevant. And Chang was trained in iron palm (not generally known, obviously; maybe to emphasize his Shuai Ciao all the more?), and used it (though not always) to win matches.

    I know I'm not the only one who knows about this, though there is apparently nothing about it online.

    But almost everyone who knows anything about Chang's training background knows about him seeking out everyone who might have something of value to teach him, and iron palm (at least as it was then taught) was certainly something of value---especially when combined with other advanced power programs like iron vest etc (the whole becoming far, far greater than just the sum of the parts). And there are many stories of him winning challenge matches in his later years with just a light slap of the hand etc. I don't even see how it's credible to think he wouldn't have had this training, it would've been almost incidental given some of the teachers he had and what was part of the old advanced "core" curriculum.

    if you knew how many times I have had someone from one of the
    local schools try to tell me what was what. Then to only be shown to know nothing of what they speak
    I've had a lot of similar experiences, though not all of them by way of the schools in NE Ohio.

    The most typical boils down to people who just aren't willing to put in hard work (I mean really hard work). This includes one visit to a school---I won't name it but it, and the Chinese man who runs it, are well known, and I have friends who train there and I have no desire to bring them any grief (they know my opinion, though, because we have trained together at times and so they also know what my opinion is based on)---a school with a reputation for really brutally hard training and super challenging hard workouts in class. Okay; so I went to visit. And, not even close to what I had experienced at Green Dragon. Best guess, about 60% as hard; in a lot of ways.

    Not really surprising. Take pro football players. They may work "hard" relative to what the typical CMA student--and many instructors---does. But really hard-working pro footballers are such a rarity that when one does come along, he quickly gets a reputation for being so. Once, it was Walter Payton. Then, it was Jerry Rice. Singled out from everybody else...

    And since so many of you guys seem to be about my age or older, check out, in many books (or, better, talk to some of his former players, like I did) what Bear Bryant used to put his guys through. No one else even came close to what Bear demanded; and no one would ever dream of trying something like that today (and it wasn't just Junction), in spite of the changes in values and the system (limits on scholie, eg).

    Most pro athletes would not even consider doing the kind of daily workout regimen some of the old Chinese masters (and students, of course) took as just a matter of course.

    But enough on that (though I could say a ton more, and about other sports, too).

    Another class of "experiences" involves a lot of things I discovered totally through accident, but that stems from when I first got directly lied to by the head of another somewhat well-known CMA school (though I didn't realize it until I talked to some of his senior students; then did some follow up to make sure it wasn't just a misunderstanding; oh, and I did not let the students know what had happened, fwiw). And that's the one that got me to start digging beyond "surface appearances" of the TCMA and "what everybody knows."

    I' have heard it all before
    Haven't we all? But that's where "actions speak louder than words" comes into play, big time, for me...Just as a start.

    And sorry, but I'm not the class of idiot some of the other statements in your post would seem to presume; in fact I used to, back in my coaching/training/playing days, get a lot of athletes (non-MA) both decent as well as a few national & world-class, coming to me for my take on various aspects of technique & training & so on because I guess I developed a positive rep of some kind (go figure), especially for being skeptical and going beyond the generally accepted ideas on some things.

    So it would take a heckuva lot more than anything that's been posted in either this or the other thread to convince me that what I'm saying, and why, is as totally lacking in validity as almost everyone else here would like to think.

    Like, people who have actually done the work, over time, and correctly, on some of the things that have been discussed here & about. 'Cuz sorry, guys, but not one of you has come up anything but M.T. in that regard. No matter whose school(s) the glowing lineages you keep holding in front of me derives from. Which shouldn't be all that hard to understand, ie, again, why was I really asked for my take at all, unless it was just some kind of typical, tired set up?

    I started off, as a kid, a big Bruce Lee fan. It took some doin' (or should I say, "undoin'") to turn me down a different path. But it sure got done.

    I'm done now. Cheers.
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-16-2007 at 06:44 PM. Reason: couple clarifying hook verbs and counter-participles

  7. #37
    Any one have any insight about Ong's endurance pills or wine of life
    Maybe. But considering what happened re: iron palm herbs, wouldn't touch it with a 10,000-year-long staff!


  8. #38

    Endurance Pills

    Have no idea what the pills are. Would really like to know.
    I can say i doubt they are really rare. I remember that Green Dragon used to advertize herbs, saying something that you had to buy x number of tapes before they'd sell iron palm, dynamite pills, endurance pills and the chi, blood , breath pills that worked with the Stone Warrior.

    Pathologies of Chi, Blood, and Spirit due to internal, external, and extra or miscellaneous causes of disease are what cause the need for herbs, acupuncture, which are lower levels of healing then say, internal cultivation such as meditation/QiGong. There is a hierarchy of healing modalities.

    Anyway Endurance Pills that are prescribed to anyone and everyone don't fit Chinese medicine, traditional or earlier. (Maybe that's a difference between kung fu and other herbalists.)That is because lack of endurance can be caused by lack of Qi and blood(Gui Pi Wan), lack of yin( Liu Wei Di Wang Wan), Liver Qi stagnation (Xiao Yao Wan), and I could go on.

    Now I have read somewhere-Iron Tiger we have to close in age due to Haynes and Bryant comments- so I don't remember where, but in some Taoist book the distinction was made about the difference between Northern and Southern Taoism. The Southern group used herbs to help cause change in mind, body, spirit, the Northern group was less likely to do so, prefering not exclusively, doing hard work over a long period of time in exercises without herbal supplementation. Maybe you know about dosages, various training philosophies.

    I had a friend show me the special Ong pills that he got from a guy who kept them frozen for a number of years. Not pungent anymore, wrapped in paper , they reminded me of Hai Ma Bu Shen Wan, Ren Shen Yang Rong Wan and other tonic formulas one would easily find in any Chinese grocery store.

    The little black pills sound like any other Chinese patent medicine/pill of that era

    So maybe there is an Ong connection to Sothern Taoist mysticism. The Ong, Green Dragon thing degenerates into blah, blah, blah. Train and grow. I totally respect lineage. The point is I'll never be Pak Sera but I can live the training he handed down from one to another to my present teacher. Feeman Ong clearly had things to teach,like the body exercise. Where's that come from?

    I have a tape of Funk's 18 Lohan and Master Su Wu Chang. You can see that the forms are similar but Master Su's is a little more detailed. Sometimes it seems that teachers show all and other times they don't show much. I'm sure Master Ong was like that at times.

    This forum could be an excellent place to share-maybe- formulas. Or reasons for the difference between Northern and Southern schools of herbology or training philosophies. Or herb knowledge like the use of channel guiding herbs to open the spine, send the herbs to the hands, feet, whatever. And yes, arm grabs could do things to the meridians, just like the exercises in in Shou Yu Liang's Qi Gong book do. Anyway sick for the first time in many years, not making much sense.

    Pilgrimsunwukung

  9. #39

    why not jump

    Akronviper:

    I can tell you quite a bit about the wine of life, I received the written prescription
    probably 25 years ago, I still have it filled in San Francisco and have it shipped to me. I don't keep all of the herbs for it due too their expensive nature. It's a good formula, I like it now that I'm in my mid 40's, I tried it when I was in my mid 20's
    it did nothing for me. When I hit my late 30's I started to notice a general tired
    feeling. My body just started changing, just age starting to peek through.
    I took it for several months, really noticed a difference. It is quite a famous
    formula, a lot of people know it and use it. shouldn't be used in warm weather
    or during things like colds or sinus infections.

    It has several tonic herbs, a very good grade of red gensing, it uses deer antler glue, ass glue (Mule) and tortoise shell glue. male and farmable gecko's , dried human placenta," looks like an oatmeal cookie if you've seen it.
    I think 90 grams of Sea horses. that's what gives it the push. I always make sure
    I get the dark Sea horses,not the white bleached out ones.

    There is a trick to making that tonic wine better, I now that nobody here
    is taking advantage of it. Soak 4 oz of Yin Yang huo ( ***** goat Weed) in your
    liquor for several weeks before putting the Wine of life (Spring tonic) herbs in.

    ***** goat weed relaxes the small blood vessels. The herbs are carried into the liver channel first
    by the alcohol then the rest of the body.

    I have never been able to get use the fishy / meaty/ rich dirt taste... must be me.


    Iron tiger: in an earlier post you mentioned about the animal a parts and hormone level measurements.
    In all of the Big hand formulas I got from Ong's guys,The animal parts where always intact in whole pieces
    the Bear Paw, the snake.. if you would like to see one, Google "100 steps Viper" or "Russell's Viper". Many of the other animal parts are getting harder to come by, and I have great connections, here and in Hong Kong and even with those you are just seeing less and less of those items every year.

    Pilgrim. Good to see you here, you add excellent insight. Thanks



    Mike
    Last edited by Piercinghammer; 01-17-2007 at 01:32 PM.

  10. #40
    The animal parts where always intact in whole pieces
    Seen three ways: as per the quote (usually dried), in a "liqui-solid" state (like put in a blender or mashed up really well), and fine-ground powdery salvelike mixture/matrix to be added in at a designated point(s) in the preparation process.

    At one time I took some mixtures to a forensic lab for analysis, they were unable to ID some of the constituents (?). The medicines made from them worked exceedlingly well, though.

    Thanks for the search terms, ph, I'll check 'em out when I have more time.

    Also not all animal parts I've seen were for iron palm meds.
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-18-2007 at 04:45 PM. Reason: couple clarifying things

  11. #41
    Join Date
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    I am not sure where some of you get your info, but I will offer what I know.
    I have had the privlege to train with some of Chang's top students here in the US over the years including David Lin (the real one out of Atlanta), John Wang, Dave Pickens, Weng etc. and they all say Chang never practiced Iron Palm. I cannot speak of what he LEARNED, but he never practiced it nor used it.
    Perhaps you are confusing Iron palm with Black Hand techniques. These techniques are generally considered "fight enders" due to their nasty intentions, but none of them I have learned are iron palm in nature.
    Chiccoine learned them from someone else. And please, PLEASE do not go into this "Chiccoine was the ONLY disciple that got all the secrets" BS as no one believes that nor wants to hear it.

    For those who don't know Mike is the shnizel when it comes to training and herbs! Great guy too. One of the few people I can call a friend in this world.
    Cheers
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  12. #42
    Join Date
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    ny ny usa
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    will the real David Lin stand up

    from previous post:

    I am not sure where some of you get your info, but I will offer what I know.
    I have had the privlege to train with some of Chang's top students here in the US over the years including David Lin (the real one out of Atlanta), John Wang, Dave Pickens, Weng etc. and they all say Chang never practiced Iron Palm

    from me:

    What do you know about David Lin (the fake one out of NYC)?

    He claims to be Chang's disciples also.

    does NYC David has anything to offer ?

  13. #43
    I have forgotten his whole story, but he is not one of Changs disiple and has nothing to offer as far as Shuai Chiao. If in NYC go to Jeng Hsing Ping school. I dont belive he still teaches at the NYC school but his to students do and it the best thing around there.

  14. #44
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    Perhaps your own thread advertising your goods would be more appropriate Panther since this thread is about Feeman Ong's training Forumlas.

    Lui-
    Read what Akron has to say. I am not interested in starting ****. If you are in NYC and what Shuai go to Jeng's school. Not much better in the area!
    Cheers
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  15. #45
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    Location
    Parma Oh US
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    Wine of Life/Chun Jiu

    Greetings:
    Some links that contain breakdown of Spring Tonic:

    http://aolisi.net/ChunJiu.htm

    http://www.mydr2.com/figures_used/spring_wine.html

    The Lee Ching Yuen version lists the wrong latin name for the Lizard,
    Phrynosoma cornuta is a "Texas Horned Toad".

    The correct latin is Gecko Gecko, the common Tokay Gecko.

    Enjoy!
    -Wolfgang

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